Exacty. Nicely done!

Thanks for this, BW. Back in my college days, a lot of my butch friends were realizing they were trans, which left me totally confused. At that time a wise older butch reminded me gently that there was power and grace in being a woman comfortable in men's clothing. She also noted that the sexiest attribute you can possess is self-confidence, no matter what your gender or orientation, and we all need to find that for ourselves. Thanks for the timely reminder!

I think that those comments also come with an underlying sexism, indicating that maleness is superior to femaleness. The idea that transitioning from female to male is the logical and preferred endpoint of all masculine women, for example.

I get frustrated as well, by the idea that masculine = male or that feminine = female. These are separate concepts: presentation and manner vs. gender. As you point out, not all female bodied individuals who prefer masculine presentation actually desire to be male, or identify their gender as male. Different parts of the person, along with a lot of other things like sexual preference, sexual practice, etc.

As to 'genderqueer', there are a lot of different ways people relate to and interpret that word, definitely. I identify as genderqueer in that my gender identity is dual, I identify as male and female. I know people who identify as neither male, nor female. There are as many variations on genderqueer as there are genderqueers I've met. Much of what you refer to above seems to concern itself with gender presentation more than gender identity. And though those two influence and play off each other, presentation and identity are two different aspects. So though I don't disbelieve that people might use 'genderqueer' as a description of how they present their gender, most of the genderqueer individuals I know see that as a deeper element of their identity. Again, that's just based on my self-knowledge and the people I happen to have met.

I've been asked before, if my masculine leanings (which include sometimes using male pronouns), are precursors to transitioning. I've had people ask if I was 'baby trans'. The truth is, for some of us, neither gender endpoint represents a destination we would be comfortable inhabiting. I don't think people mean to be rude with those questions, I think they are are revealing their assumptions about the desirability of choosing a particular gender and sticking with the binary.

OK, I've gone on long enough. I enjoyed the post, thanks for writing it.

'genderqueer' has become a much broader and wider umbrella term since I first heard of it and adopted it for myself. Now days, if I have an opportunity to talk about my gender identity, I add some other words to the description, like 'bi-gender', 'gender binary non-conforming' and 'transgender'. Transgender is another very wide umbrella term that is often misunderstood and misconstrued. If I can use all of these terms, plus 'queer' to describe myself, I can create a much more complete picture for the person I'm talking to.

I think some people see 'genderqueer' as a term meaning something more like 'queering gender', which isn't wrong, it's just not exactly what I mean when I use it. Another case among many where a single label doesn't tell the whole story of someone's identity.

OMG!!! You've said it all girl! As a fem lesbian I didn't find this words any woman-less at all. Glad you brought this approach with your own example. Loved your point of view!

~sorry for those 2repeated replies on this comment. That was meant for Kay Jones. Idk why they showed up here. Lol. But my first reply it was meant for this comment though.

Thanks for posting, this is a super important topic. I get an odd corollary question, because I date butch/stud women, so people sometimes ask why I don't *just* date trans men. My answer is typically, 'because they're men'... (why would you ask me that?)

Its just as strange a question as, 'why don't you transition'. I guess there is still a lot of confusion in folk's minds about gender identity and gender presentation, if its still so easy to conflate a masculine presentation with a male identity.

Ideally we would love and support and accept whatever works best for folks individually, while understanding that we have different paths. We all just want to be ourselves, and that looks different for each of us.

From a femme prospective, I truly believe having a supportive partner is so important. Its not whats up with physic it has more to do with whats exchanged mentally. It seems to me me that its more about respect of each others roles that can make your butch the happiest most content person. And a happy femme too.

I know how a lot of you feel or think. My point is DO NOT jump on the FAD train that has been running for a awhile now. If you are young...check into things as Stone Butch, Butch/Femme Dynamic. Life makes more sense. don't just make harsh decisions or listen to gang of what is the coolest item to buy for the year! I have been there. I know!

Great post. I much appreciated the voice. Sometimes, I feel that the community has started a fad shift into trans-centric identities and me as a lesbian woman could be losing more of our butch females to gender altering surgeries, medications and the like. Identity is always a personal choice. However I do tend to wonder what has influenced some of those choices and if they will still feel like the right choices 5-10 years later. This is not a knock on the trans members of our community at all. But I am a lesbian who still likes to date and share intimate times with a female (identified butch, aggressive, femme, whatever) body. It's nice to know that the more masculine side of the spectrum still has those who want to keep their female bodies too.

Very well-stated, C.D. Kirven. Trans men are men, and Trans women are women. To continue to draw a separate distinction between them further erodes the strides that have been made within the LGBT community. That's where most of the infighting, brow-beating and insults come from: within the community itself. There CANNOT be any one defining distinction for any one gender expression--we are all as alike as we are different. Cross-dressers are not necessarily homosexual, masculine-identified butches don't always transition and ain't it grand to not HAVE to fit into that old nasty gender binary? But I have this to say: why does being butch ID as being male-identified? Why does it have to equal masculine? Why can't it just "be"? There are Trans women who are masculine, Trans men who are feminine. Why repeat and buy into the melodrama by using the terms?

This was @ the comment left by MAX. The comment you can't be a woman comfortable in men's clothes... TYPO ABOVE!

I take issue with the idea that 'trans' specifically means 'transsexual' (aka, someone who has gone through physical transition). I identify as 'non-binary trans' which is an identity that is completely invisible in this article. From what I understand 'transgender' is seen by many as an umbrella term that can mean transsexual, cross-dressing, drag, genderqueer, or any gender non-conforming or non-binary identity. Why must we equate 'trans' with testosterone?

I did not mean to imply that everyone who fits that general description of 'trans' SHOULD identify as trans....but I am saying that some folks who never intend to identify as a man still do identify as trans. I appreciate your delineation between gender expression and gender identity, but is it not true that one's gender expression is an outward, physical manifestation of one's identity? In this instance I could envision two people, both with very similar gender expressions, but whose identity is different (one identifies as butch, the other as non-binary trans or genderqueer

Non-Binary Trans* referes to anyone who identifies as transgender but not trans-male/female. I identify as neutrois - or neutral-gendered - which is a non-binary identity because it is neither female nor male. I am transitioning, but not to male.

There are many more variations of non-binary, genderqueer, and other trans* identities. For instance, some transguys will identify as "genderqueer transmale" in that they identify as guys, but not 100%, there is wiggle room.

As Jade points out, the _expression_ of people can be the same, but their identity may be different.

"Non-Binary Trans* refers to anyone who identifies as transgender but not trans-male/female." word, maddox.

i'm transitioning from cafab to non-binary, rather than from cafab to m. my transition is mostly social, but it may eventually include hormones and/or top surgery.

"non-binary trans*" is about as specific as i can get about my gender; i just know that i'm neither a woman nor a man and i'm cool with the vagueness.

This woman does not look cute in dresses. Fact.

OMG!!! You've said it all girl! As a fem lesbian I didn't find this words any woman-less at all. Glad you brought this approach with your own example. Loved your point of view!

I have been sniped at my a straight friend, when I was discussing butch identity with another butch 'Well why don't you just slap a dick on and call yourself a man?!?! Since you dress like one and kind of act like one and apparently are okay with that!' my response (besides a stunned expression) was 'because I don't WANT to BE a man. I just want to be me.' People don't know what do do with us, those with female bodies that choose to present masculinely. They're so used to the binary and push it so hard that sometimes (at least myself) I think we start to question what we know about ourselves. ('Well I'm comfortable like this but so many people say it's only a layover on my way to trans*... maybe I'm just fooling myself....') We don't fit in the neat little boxes to be categorized and filed away neatly but that doesn't mean that we are not our true selves. Just remember that despite what others sometimes say, no one knows you better than yourself.

Amen!!!

Thanks Femme Princess

Great post but would like to add that many trans guys do not transition to be masculine but to be male. masculine and male are not the same things. There are cis and trans guys who are femme identified.

That you consider lesbianism a choice indicates why you react negatively to those lesbians and gay men who "need or want to have a fixed identity".
The concept of "choice" or "free will" in "deciding" on a "lifestyle" or gender "expression" is not one that is universally accepted and currently divides within "our" community; Cynthia Nixon found this out when she said she "chose" to be a lesbian. I believe her. I believe this is true for some lesbians, but not all.

I believe I chose to be a lesbian as a political act many decades ago, and I remain happy with my choice. My wife believe she was born a lesbian, and is now out despite decades of denial and disapproval by her very conservative fundamentalist family who believe that homosexuality is a sin, and conversion from sin is part of repentance and acceptance of their form of Christianity... so which is it? Nature or nurture? I suspect both, without hierarchy of type. And I am okay with that.

Respectfully, it's interesting to me that you talk a lot about not bowing to the culturally imposed ideas of what a man or a woman is, then go on to essentially reenforce some of those within this column. some thoughts:

- given the myriad ways of expressing and experiencing physical bodies, what exactly is a "female body"? Particularly considering that trans women and other folks who were not assigned female at birth but nevertheless identify as women don't seem to be included in this conception of / discussion about butch being laid out here.

- the unstated assumption throughout this article is that when we talk about butches, we are actually talking about cis women; but butch includes trans women butches.

- and sometimes that includes an adam's apple and other things certain folks may not associate with a "female body". just sayin'.

- genderqueer is not "fashionable", it's also not a fad, a trend, or a bandwagon.

- genderqueer =/= androgynous or any other one specific thing/ presentation/ politic.

- please put a space in between trans and woman, the way you put a space between trans and man.

Just because some people misuse the term genderqueer, or aren't articulate enough about their identity for you, or don't fit the stereotype of genderqueerness you have in your head and are thus assumed cis, does not mean you can call someone's gender "fashionable." That kind of rhetoric stinks of butch-flight bullshit which why this thread is rife with it. You invited it into your home.

And asexual is a sexual orientation. It doesn't have any more to do with gender than any other sexual orientation.

..."what exactly is a 'female body'?"

good point. my body is generally labeled "female"-- but it happens to belong to a non-binary person and is therefore non-binary. a female body is just a body that belongs to a female-identified person, right?

and as for genderqueer being fashionable: it isn't very fashionable here on the ground. i know it's snazzy in internet-land to be genderqueer, but it just causes strife and general shitty-ness in real life. i'm slowly losing pieces of my family-- and it doesn't feel very fashionable. but, yeah, i think genderqueer is "cutting edge" online, right now.

Just to add my two cents. I have a gay son and for many years gay was the only word I knew. Now we have bi sexuals, transgenders, gays and lesbian and probbly many others that I had not heard. Now I am very lucky to learn another description that I could use for my Medicine Wheel Teachings. In our Native culture we call you the Two-Spirited people. In the time before European culture came into the Americas, the Two-Spirited people were looked upon as people with many blessings. They were gifted to do to double the ceremonies as they were identified as both male and female. I believe we all have some per sent of our opposite energies. I am hetro but I can be more masculine than many men and I nor they have no problem with that. Anyway, miiwetch (Ojibwe), quyanah (Yupik Eskimo), thank you.

Hate to stereotype even myself, but let's say I'm a fem lesbian. I feel attracted to butch-type women. My girlfriend is a butch, and I love every single of her female attributes! So I'm glad that you explained so well the misconception of butch and transgender women. As long this world is surrounded by humans, it'll be also surrounded by ignorance and stereotyping minds not only for the butch woman but also for those dykes who aren't attracted to fem lesbians. People is time to open those eyes! Enjoy who you are, who you are with, and let others enjoy it in their own ways too. Like u said, "at the end, your wild and precious identity is all yours alone."

Joe, I very much appreciate your very cogent commentary. In #5 you said, "... Being butch does not set you on some path to 'full' masculinity. A butch woman's masculinity is not different in degree from that of a butch man or FTM; it is different in kind."

Yes, exactly. It is female masculinity. A type of masculine energy that arises out of & is expressed through a female body. It is that energy that attracts me like no other. To me, a femme lesbian/queer woman, female masculine energy feels distinctly different than does that of male masculinity. It is palpable regardless of hairstyle, clothing, makeup or lack of. In my perception the energy has nothing to do with outward presentation.

We do live in a dominant culture that is still inherently sexist & in some ways quite misogynist. Thus, I do sometimes wonder if for some the discomfort of being female is due to internalized misogyny &/or sexism. I get it that for some the discomfort is due to being certain that one is a male in the wrong body.

As a feminist I believe it us as women who get to define the expression of our femaleness regardless of which wonderful & powerful form it takes. I am a woman who owns high femme as my gender. My sexuality is lesbian/queer.

Late to the party -- just started catching up on BW posts. But I'm not very good at keeping my mouth shut.

I'd like to add another slant to orientation.

I'm a trans woman (oversimplifies it, but it'll do for the moment). I'm frustrated by the construct that wants to label my orientation as straight, or gay, or bi. I've come to understand myself as queer-oriented. That's not necessarily the same thing as attraction to anyone who's LGBT. There are relatively gender-normative ways of being any of those, and there are quite queer ways of being any of those. (I would say gender queer, but that term seems to have generated more heat than light in this discussion.) The cis women I find attractive tend to be butch/masculine lesbians. The frequently-seen uber-masculine gay male world doesn't do anything for me, but there are gay guys outside of that "we are MEN" context that I really warm to. Trans people who insert themselves seamlessly into our gender-binary culture don't excite me, but let me meet someone whose gender fucks with my head and I'm starry-eyed. (Note I'm not saying about whether certain "types" are good or bad; just reporting on what I've observed in myself as far as who I'm attracted to.) My current gf hardly fits any kind of gender-normative femaleness, but she's definitely a woman, a trans woman.

If we can conceive of gender outside the binary of female/male, or even outside the female/fmale continuum, why can't sexuality be outside the gay/bi/straight continuum?

(Re-reading this, I'm afraid it's not as clear as I'd like. But this is a relatively new understanding of myself, and I'm still trying to sort out what it is and how it works. If you flame me, please do it gently.)

I am the gender in between, ... I was born female, ... identify as butch, I and am taken as trans often, I identify with the latter two easily, female or male ??? either dont sit right ..... i am just me the gender in between love me or hate me !!! too bad because it's how i was borne and it is who I am !!!