On a whim last week, I posted a question on my Facebook page: "What do butches do that bugs you?"  I invited anyone--butches, non-butches, whoever--to answer, and got over 200 responses from BW readers.

Responses varied, but some distinct themes emerged.  (To be clear, I'm not saying that butches have these traits--or that I'm not guilty of any!)

  • Ignoring other butchesSeveral butch readers said that they'd love to have more butch friends, but that other butches ignore them or are unresponsive when they reach out.  I've had this experience--but on the other hand, I've had the opposite, too (which is how I became such good friends with my buddy C).  Check out my post on butch-butch friendships.
  • Too much time in the bathroom or on their hair.  [BW averts her eyes.]
  • Dressing too sloppily.  One reader wrote, "I love butch girls but [it] bothers me it they wear their pants super baggy and walk around grabbing their crotch. It's disgusting when a man does it but when a sexy, beautiful butch woman does it it looks ridiculous."  Another reader opined that there are many butches "who think that tracksuit bottoms, a t-shirt and wearing the same deodorant as a 15 year old boy is acceptable first date attire."  No BW readers, I hope!  (Oh--and a few readers specifically mentioned that they've seen a lot of butches in bras that don't give them enough support.  That's no good.  If you wear a 38D, a $15 sports bra from Target doesn't cut it.)
  • Excessive "swagger" or cockiness.  This was a big one, mentioned by more readers than any other trait.  One butch wrote that "super rude, cocky, puff-out-your-chest butch women irritate [her]."  Another said she disliked the "hyper-ego." she occasionally saw among butches.  I agree that arrogance--which is very different from confidence--is never attractive.  And I hate that so many people associate this kind of behavior with the word "butch!"
  • Trying to police butchness.  This includes telling soft butches that they're not real butches and stating "rules" like, "You can't be butch if you have long hair" or "If you wear women's underwear, you're not butch."  What?  I acknowledge that it's hard to define "butch," but I believe that identity policing is rooted in insecurity.  (One butch reader wrote, "I hate when femmes think I'm too butch and butches think I'm too soft. Can't we just agree that I'm cute and will make your mom love me and make your dad wish I was his dyke-in-law?")
  • Hating on butch-butch couples; hating on trans men; hating on bisexual women.  You don't have to understand (or even like) people who are different from you, but why not try to be kind to them?
  • "Puffing up" when they see another butch.  Another big one.  When you pass a butch you don't know, there's no need to glare at her (or studiously ignore her), pull your girlfriend closer to you, and use your body language to let everyone know that it's "your" McDonald's.
  • Being too butch.  Of all the critiques I read, this was the only one I really got annoyed at.  A handful of people wrote things like, "I know you wear guys' clothes, but don't overdo it," or "Stop wearing men's pants," or "I once knew someone that wore men's underwear! Can u imagine?"  (Uh, yes.  Yes, I can.)  This is another form of identity policing.  Please don't tell me the "right" way to be butch.  Geez.
  • Being chauvinistic.  This garnered the second-largest number of complaints (right after the swagger/cockiness one).  Readers wrote that some butches want too much control in the relationship, or want to be "the guy" (or a hyperbolic, cartoon version of a guy, in any case), or expect "their woman" to wait on them, or belittle their girlfriends.  No one claimed that it happened often, but most said that when it did, it tended to be in the context of a butch-femme relationship.  One person wrote, "I don't want my Dapper Gentlelady... to save me, or treat me like I'm weaker or lesser than her...  Just because she has an impressive tie collection (no, seriously; it's something to behold) doesn't make her the 'man' in the relationship. There isn't a man here, just two equal women; one in a bow tie, the other in heels."
  • Cheating or being a player.  (Most readers acknowledged that this isn't specific to butches; it's just that I asked about butches.  Maybe I would have gotten the same answer by asking about femmes.)
  • Wearing dresses just because it's what's expected of them.  Readers weren't exactly "bothered" by this--more like "disheartened."  It made them sad to see butches conform to social norms when they clearly didn't want to (although readers also acknowledged that sure, some butches might feel comfortable in a dress).
  • Not respecting their elders.  This quote summed it up: "I would like to hear less [sic] derogatory comments about older butches. I hear too often insults about their clothes, their mannerisms, and even their looks. I think we all forget the struggle they went through, coming out in a much less forgiving era. They essentially paved the path we all so 'gayly' walk now."
  • Playing it too close to the vest.  Many people commented that butches seem more difficult than most to get to know.  They used phrases like "ultra protective of everything" or "not letting people know them."  Hmm...  I can certainly relate to the disinclination to make oneself vulnerable (once bitten, twice shy, and all that).

Whether there's truth in any of these is highly debatable.  But these are some stereotypes people hold, and I think it's worth knowing about them, engaging with them, and taking them seriously. 

For example, one straight reader (I LOVE that straight people read BW--you rock, straight readers!) wrote that in contrast to, say, gay men, she finds butches a little intimidating.  I was surprised at first--me?  But I appreciated her honesty.  And although, sure, I wish people didn't assume things about butches based on our appearance, it also reminded me that I might need to go out of my way sometimes to make myself approachable (I'm not suggesting that everyone needs to do this--it just matters to me personally).

Do any of these ring true?  Can it be productive to talk about them?

 


Comments

Alex McFerron
01/08/2013 20:18

I do think some butches keep a distance from other butches or get nervous around them. We should all be buds!

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Stacy
01/08/2013 21:10

Very true. I call it the Butch Barrier.

BW, I love you. You have created the safest place I know to be butch while simultaneously calling me out on my imperfections. You rock.

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Catmo
01/08/2013 21:51

Stacy, awesome thought! I never thought of BW that way, but damn if it's not true. Good job, BW.

01/09/2013 19:08

Geez, what an awesome compliment to get. That is so cool! Thanks!

Megan V
01/31/2013 14:50

I'm a SUPER friendly person and I make friends where ever I go but I've been accused of not being 'butch friendly.' I just don't pick my friends on how they dress.

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Catmo
01/08/2013 21:46

"puffing up", Ok I have to laugh. It's unfortunate but true. I've seen this so many times, all over the country. I can typically peg "my people" a mile away. It's funny that I can watch a couple for several minutes, but the moment the butch sees me...She "puffs up". I call it the "silver back syndrome". They get a few inches taller put their hands on her hips and guide her to their other side, so they are between her and me. It cracks me up every time. They all but rush me, pounding their chests. Funny funny funny...calm down ladies... I am not undressing your lady, I'm just happy to see my people, G Whiz! :)

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01/08/2013 22:13

Some sweeping generalizations here and in some cases a little close to the truth. I think a lot of this may have to do with regional differences. In the San Francisco/Oakland area, we have a large butch/femme community so more contact in real time.

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m
01/08/2013 23:39

I'm sure this is not the first time I've made this sort of comment, but complaints like "Dressing too sloppily" annoy me because they're a way of policing other people's appearance, sometimes based on what the commenter finds attractive. I think it's inappropriate in the same way it would be inappropriate to complain about someone not showing enough cleavage (or showing too much) on a date. If "tracksuit bottoms, a t-shirt and wearing the same deodorant as a 15 year old boy" are not acceptable first date attire for you, you are welcome to decline a second date with the person who was dressed that way and they are welcome to go on more dates to find people who don't mind (or like!) their clothing choices.

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Gus Grayman
01/09/2013 01:19

I am a Tranny Man. A bit saged, and gray at the temples and crown, but happy nonetheless. So I can understand both sides here about all this. While I was the next generation of butches, and mentor to the one that followed me, I feel somewhat obligated to share these thoughts.

1. The butches from Stone Wall era, thank you. Thank you for making my transition, just a tad easier. Thankfully there was no violence when I came out.

2. Okay let me point this out.... I find the saying "way too baggy" is an oximoron. You don't need to wear tight jeans. You don't need to wear jeans that are custom fit to your body. But if you can't even show a little respect for the lady you're taking out for the first time by dressing decently, you really should wonder if you respect yourself.

3. Getting to this baggy pants, etc. thing. The only time wearing extremely casual clothes on a first date should be, a sporting date. I'm not talking about grabbing dinner and heading for a romantic walk. I'm talking rock climbing, hiking, jogging, etc. You are there to woo and impress her. Give her something lasting to think about you with. "Wow, he/she actually showed up in a nice pair of slacks, and shirt! He/she was the most handsome butch that night. I couldn't keep my eyes off of him/her." That was 12 years ago. I'm still with that lady of mine. We grow closer every day.

Do you want just a date? Or do you want a lifetime. It's really up to you to decide that one.

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Fallen
01/09/2013 01:34

Butches in dresses can be fun... In my case, I decided to get people to sponsor me to wear a dress for a day for charity. I raised 600 pounds ((nearly a thousand dollars) - twice as much as I raised for shaving my head!

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01/09/2013 19:21

Ha! Now THAT'S a reason I can imagine putting on a dress.

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01/09/2013 09:12

I am also currently collecting research of how you define a STUD/bitch. And the answers hv been quite surprising. I will share this article.

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01/09/2013 19:25

Oh, cool! I've been asked that question a lot, but I never know how to answer. I've heard it's used in the black queer community more than in the queer community in general; I wonder if that's true. (I'm white; my black butch friends say that the word "stud" is a "black thing," but I have no idea.)

If you'd be interested, I'd love to have you do a guest post about this (not even necessarily to answer it--even just to talk about the idea of defining "stud" would be cool). Email me at butchwonders@yahoo.com if you're interested. :)

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Amy
01/09/2013 09:29

I'm butch and I hate all these things too! Ugh. I don't like misogyny or sexism or identity policing in anyone. I don't like the way most teenagers dress for the outside world (sloppy and pajama-y) and I don't like insecurity (in the form of needing to intimidate or ignore others). I think part of the reason I don't do any of the stuff above is that I don't see myself as butch FIRST. Butch is something I layer over being a feminist, being queer, being kind/compassionate, being ethical, being responsible. With all of those underlying layers butch doesn't define the entirety of my experience so it's a lot easier to be relaxed within its borders and to be flexible with what those borders look like to others.

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bee listy
01/09/2013 12:13

Yeah! Amen.

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Jen
01/10/2013 19:52

Teenagers the world over would be thrilled to hear you hate what they're wearing! They'd be all "Yes! Our plan is working!"

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Jax
01/09/2013 09:32

Interesting read, I identify as butch, and yet have not experience any of this!
Maybe it's just my community of Butches I surround myself with, we are few and proud, but we respect one another because of that! And would never feel the need to "dis" one of our own! I think we are a dying breed to be honest!
But there is one thing that stuck out for me, the entry about
Being chauvinistic = want to much control in the relationship, or want to be "the guy" As if, some butches are big romantics at heart and want to make their femme fill like they are loved and cherished! For me it's not to be "the Guy" in the relationship or to have control, cause honestly no matter how butch you are, we know a beautiful femme in our lives who respects and loves us, runs the show, and I personally love it! I am butch woman who loves femme women I wear my heart on my sleeve for all to see, I love and respect my femme G/f, and would never run the show because it just wouldn't work out for either of us, if I ever even thought about trying to control the relationship, that would be the day it ends. Because both of us make it work, with what each of us bring to it, her fierce femininity and my butch boldness~

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abby
04/20/2013 20:13

Jax,
I love your post and appreciate it, I too am a Butch who dates a Femme and I too believe that the Femme runs the show.
I also agree with you about if she doesn't then that would be the day it ends. Not saying that it is a bad thing, I just feel that she should run the show as she deserves all of the respect, love and admiration that you can show her. It doesn't make us any LESS BUTCH !!!!!!
That is what makes it a good Butch-Femme Dynamic.
I wear my heart on my sleeve also, and she respects that much more than acting as if you have no emotions.
About the "guy" comment, in this Butch-Femme relationship that is so far from the truth. I am female identified and she wouldn't have it any other way. So when people make the assumption that ALL Butches want to be men is ignorant.

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04/23/2013 17:31

Right there with both of you. My sweet femme girl runs the show all day long and I'm fine with it.

Scout
01/09/2013 10:05

Oh I hope my gf reads this! I really have a hard time when she acts like a dude and gets all weird when men or other butch women talk to me or look at me. I can take care of myself and I am no one's property.

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01/09/2013 10:06

I think a lot of these are true across the spectrum, not just in Butch circles. But they are definitely good to talk about. If they are things that people have noticed about Butches, than Butches should be aware that they may be portraying themselves this way.
Can you do a list for femmes next?? lol.

P.S. I read above that Stacy commented that you have created a safe haven here for Butches. I think that is true... but, to your credit, you have also created a resource for femmes (like myself) and your straight readers so we can better understand the Butches in our lives. Cheers to you, BW! :)

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01/09/2013 19:28

Aw, shucks. [Blushes.] I'm really, really glad that BW is a resource for you. That's awesome. As for a femme list... since I neither AM a femme nor am in a relationships with one, I'd have to tread lightly. But I really like the idea. Hm...

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Whitney Nadolny
01/13/2013 15:10

I SO second this!! As a newly "out" femme (im a late bloomer; im 26!!), I would loooove to see a list for femmes. BW, I hope you consider- poll your readers! To be fair, you aren't "straight", and you've made comparable lists regarding straight behavior. I think it would be interesting! :)

CJ
01/09/2013 10:31

Good conversation, thanks everyone. I came out as a lesbian in 1978 and fully embraced by butch identity in the last 7 or 8 years. I'm in a 20-year monogamous relationship and I've been grateful to my spouse for supporting my expressing my butch self in all its glory. One thing we struggle with is when someone (usually a femme) wants to worship my butch-ness in a totally innocent and fun/supportive way. My spouse gets jealous and I wish she could let me revel in the glory just a tad. Other than that it's all good. I wear what I want to work (in a professional office setting) and strut my stuff on the street. Feels so good.

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h
01/09/2013 10:48

I am a new reader and have really loved your blog and feel a great sense of community I don't often feel when I'm actually around other butches. It's funny cause I think many of these butchy stereotypes probably held true for me (and many of my other butch sisters) when I was in my twenties. However now as I get older and have been married to my beautiful wife for a few years, I've noticed the "kids these days" still committing the freeze out. It makes me laugh. It seems to me that we should smile at one another, cause we are usually the only butch in our family or workplace or even among our friends. I'm not competition my friend, I am just like you. We are a brave clan of women willing to be ourselves in an ever-judging world.

I think we should start a movement. We should all decide that instead of averting our eyes from each other when we meet on the street or in our local bars, grocery stores, city parks, etc. we should high five each other and celebrate that we are both brave butchy women out in public living our lives with vigor! :)

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01/09/2013 19:30

Yeees! I love that idea. Hm, maybe we should have a sign that BW readers could flash at each other. It would have to be something that wouldn't look idiotic if the person didn't return it. Any ideas?

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01/09/2013 12:24

If any of you BW readers see me on the streets of Cincinnati, OH, USA, I certainly hope you'll at least give me the head nod.

I love being social with other butches, and wish that I had more of an offline community of butches! I'm 35, in a relationship, but can never have enough friends.

Re: policing of butch identities, you can read what i said a couple of years ago. http://beelisty.wordpress.com/2010/01/20/i-am-butch-and-i-contain-multitudes/

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Carmo
01/09/2013 21:03

I've never had a close butch friend, and it's not me! I do have two femme friends...but it always gets weird when they hook up, because of the jealousy thing. *sigh* :(

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Catmo
01/09/2013 21:05

Hmm Carmo, is good too? lol.

01/13/2013 21:34

That is awesome--thanks, Bee! What a great read.

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Jay Adams
01/09/2013 12:28

from one butch to another - beautifully written...thank you BW ;-)

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Alexandra
01/09/2013 15:03

You know what really bothers me? When people, desiring to associate with a particular gender stereotype, choose the worst traits and re-establish those as a defining part of that gender role. I'm not sure I'm explaining myself well - an example might be a butch who considers herself masculine. No problems there, but maybe she chooses laziness, poor hygiene and being overly aggressive to express that masculinity. Now I'm not one to prevent others from expressing themselves, but when their expressions are reflected back across an entire gender, yeah I get a little grumpy. I don't think anyone would be OK with someone explaining away violent behaviour because it's 'manly' or 'I'm being extra butch today.'

And this happens. It's not just a butch thing either, the stereotypical effeminate gay man has traits like 'bitchiness/cattiness'; selfishness; self-consciousness and vanity. All traits associated with women. And somehow, when genders cross and mix (as they do) these traits are reinforced as 'belonging' to each gender.

I'm a bit over it really. I love seeing butch women being kind, gentle and thoughtful - like most of the men I know. And when my fags are brave, bold and considerate, they remind me of the women I most admire.

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C.H
01/09/2013 15:18

I dnt have problem being friends wit other butch lesbians,we are fun ppl. Yeah buddy .

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C.H
01/09/2013 15:23

Is there sum thing wrong with being attracted 2 another butch?if so I wld like 2 knw y thanx.

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01/09/2013 15:44

'Butch' is usually what the wider world sees FIRST about me. It seems I don't have much choice in that - unless I chose to somehow feminize my presentation. So a lot of people including other butches, others in the LGBTQI spectrums, and those outside don't see the whole me unless, until, they get to know me.
The 'identity police' query my butchness - I'm too soft and gentle, too introverted and intellectual, too quirky and individualistic.
Yet for many others I'm too butch, and to some people this is disturbing, possibly intimidating.
People's minds work like this, it's and aspect of our basic congnition - we classify and assign attributes. When someone or something disrupts this framework it causes uneasiness. I understand, but just wish a lot more people were more conscious of their own reactions.
As an older butch, I've come a long road since the early 1970's and I'm pretty much amazed that gender policing is so commonplace now.
I remember and incident in a bar in about 1974 where a rather drunk and obnoxious and very rough femme (it was that kind of bar) dissed me as looking like a 'sissy' and told me that my attire was totally 'last year' - so fashion policing as well as gender policing! Yet strangely I've had almost exactly the same kind of comments made in recent months, By young and old, identifying variously as butch, queer, genderqueer, trans, soft butch, and, dismayingly - Femme.
I'd like us all to relax a little, let go of our rigid stereotypes and the fallout that goes with them, apply a little critical thinking and at the same time be a lot kinder to each other. We're all in this thing together!

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Sevrin
02/05/2013 17:34

I think the reason the identity police our out in force again is due to the upswing in attention the community is getting now that we are starting to get more rights. The LGBTIQ (or whatever it's become now) community feels safest when we're out of sight, yet we're now in the spotlight. In my community the gay bars and clubs are over 50% straight, either because they are 'cooler' or worse they have come to 'watch the gays' like we're a freak show. Some bars have 'clamped down' but can only do this by looks, so some straight looking femmes have been barred for not looking gay and vice versa. And when the bar is mixed you get 'enforcement' of stereotypes as a way of masking insecurity, creating a clan mentality.

Hopefully when the equal marriage hoopla dies down we can get our bars and safe places back, and everyone will relax again.

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Caughtinyoureyes
01/09/2013 17:35

Holy crap. I don't check the blog for a day and the whole thing blows up. 24 comments!!! People are truly passionate about this post. I say yes to all of this. So many different views, all with value. I have held my butchness in for so long as a teacher in a conservative area, that now I'm presenting way more masculine and my little butch boi wife loves it. Butch isn't so much a look as it is a feeling. I do at least expect the head nod, handshake, hello, or SOMETHING friendly.

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01/10/2013 08:07

I love this: "I hate when femmes think I'm too butch and butches think I'm too soft. Can't we just agree that I'm cute and will make your mom love me and make your dad wish I was his dyke-in-law?"

What a great way to state the way it should be.

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01/17/2013 17:50

Butch nod! Come on! It's just acknowledgement!

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CJ
02/14/2013 13:47

I love the "Silver Back Syndrome" comment!
I think of the Butches I'm my community much the same way but refer to it as "Cave Man Syndrome". Nothing brings it out better than a large gathering such as Pride or a bar and alcohol. I will admit I'm just as guilty as the rest of us though. It starts with the butch nod and puffer fish chest and then quickly turns into what I have described as a bunch of cave butches dragging their women around by the hair while beating their club on the ground and grunting "dis one mine..uugg".
We also have an issue in our community where our fellow butches hold a lack of respect for others relationships. I've been witness and fell p
ray to so called friends blatantly going after mine or others partners. I live in a large community but the butch to femme ratio is 4 to 1 and it gets a little crazy at times.
But in general my nod is just that.. a sign of aknowlegment.. a Hey buddy We are not alone, I see you thing!

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Megan
02/14/2013 14:31

I agree with the Butch Butch sigma. I am a Butch who loves me a wonderful woman no matter how they define themselves. It drove me nuts the looks a girlfriend and i had gotten once one time when we went out to the bar one night. I get enough judgment from the public, why the one place i should feel comfortable in? I hate the stereotypes I'm given, like socially inept, sexually unapproachable and that I'm not a touchy feely person. I want to not be judged based on my looks by my own community.

I agree also that Butch should be more open to other Butch women. We are a group of like minded individuals who can share our experiences. Why think I'm gonna steal your chick? What if i have one waiting for me and i just want to be your friend? I try my best to just relax and have fun wherever i go. Others should do the same. I promise a life of fun and good times if you do.

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lindsey
03/03/2013 15:23

I think we should remember that we are women and lesbians , we dont need to take on the emotional weaknesses of men.

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Jesse M.
03/16/2013 18:15

i think one thing that needs to be addressed too is stages. im butch, but i can look back over the last 18 years and see my progression from a "butch boi" to a genuine butch, and yes there is a difference. our butch brothers before us (way back in the 40-50's, maybe before), led the way. The butch would take on the mans role, and usually only close friends or family would know it was actually two women together. back then societies morals and chivalry were different than today's. when i first came out and was becoming comfortable in my butchness, i did the cocky thing, i did the steer my lady away thing... part of that was my own insecurities, and part really not knowing what a butch was, or how they should act. as time progressed and i started figuring it out, by example and my own standards, plus maturing, i became less puffy, less apt to steer clear, and more secure with who i was and my relationship. i think if the generations of butches actually reached out to one another (such as the older generations helping our younger butches, and even the youngers ones can help us learn a thing or two) then we might see a bit less of this going on... far as the self respect, thats something that every woman needs to learn butch fem straight bi, trans... doesnt matter, and that is another big key to the above list

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Philosopher
03/28/2013 15:11

Is there a counter point version of this entry? I would love to weigh in on what I LOVE about butches.

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Helen
04/22/2013 11:22

some of these made me giggle a bit, but i can relate most to the bit at the end, I'm often referred to as a "lipstick lesbian" and i'm pretty shy, but 90% of the time when I do get the guts to try to make the first move I get looked at like i'm just after a free drink or something, like they think I'm straight just cos I wear dresses, heels and have nails (which if you know what you're doing don't actually cause damage). I guess I'm just reiterating the point that sometimes you aren't all that approachable, if someone talks to you please don't give them a look of "naff off", you don't know how much it took for her to approach you

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04/22/2013 11:27

That is a *great* point, Helen. Anytime anyone approaches *anyone*, you've got to give them props for doing it at all. Even if you're not interested, it doesn't cost you anything to smile. Be flattered, at least--and respectful of their guts. :)

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04/23/2013 17:25

Great thoughts both in your blog post and in the comments.

I'm a self-employed acupuncturist. Being cordial, warm, friendly is part of my job and my personality, yet I've been accused of being "not butch enough" by a few people because of it. Whatevs. That's their insecurity, not mine.

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