Why Aren't All Butches Trans?

1/18/2012

Here are three excerpts from reader emails and comments this month:

"I wish I was born a man, but I don't want to be trans. What gives?"
"I don't want to be a guy, I am a woman, but I want top surgery, or at least smaller breasts. I guess I might be genderqueer?"
"I don't get why all butch lesbians aren't trans. Why not go all the way?"

One underlying commonality is that all three readers are trying to reconcile a female body with the desire to have "masculine" attributes. They all seem to assume that if a ciswoman (someone who was born biologically female and identifies as female) wants attributes that we associate with maleness, she secretly, somewhere deep down, wants to be a man. Or at least, they suggest that being a woman with certain male attributes undercuts a self-identification as female.

As a butch who has great respect for trans men but no desire to be one, I have a few answers to the "why aren't all butches trans" question.

First, gender is culturally imposed. The idea that men should wear ties and women should wear dresses is not biologically embedded in our brains. If a woman wants to sample/use/enjoy "male" culture, why would this necessarily indicate that she would also want facial hair and a penis? To me, the two feel totally separate.
"Genderqueer" means different things to different people. But I most often hear it defined as existing outside the gender binary--someone who sees themselves as neither male, nor female.
"Genderqueer" is a fashionable thing to be right now. But you need not identify as genderqueer just because you are a butchy dyke, or a cross-dressing man, or a transwoman, or anything else. You can be a man in a dress who completely identifies as a man, or a woman in a tie who completely identifies as a woman. Personally, I am not genderqueer. I look rather butch/androgynous, but I completely identify as female. Just because a woman has short hair, or binds her breasts, or wears a tie, does not mean she is automatically "genderqueer."
There is a big difference between being a woman in "men's" clothing and being a man in "men's" clothing. I feel at home thinking of myself as the former, but not as the latter. I want a cufflinks and big watch and boots and a button-up shirt. But I don't want the chest hair or Adam's apple or anything else that supposedly "goes with" being male. Assuming that a butch "really" wants to be a man embraces the false idea that gender and sex are one and the same--that a person's body and mannerisms and shoe choices should all align.
If you are a woman-identified butch lesbian, becoming a trans man is not "going all the way." Being butch does not set you on some path to "full" masculinity. A butch woman's masculinity is not different in degree from that of a butch man or FTM; it is different in kind.

At the risk of sounding trite ("we're-all-beautiful-and-unique-and-special-like-freaking-snowflakes-kum-bah-yah"), I hope you'll embrace your woman-ness or man-ness or genderqueer-ness or whatever-you-are-ness without regard to culturally imposed ideas of what a man or a woman is. That doesn't just include mainstream culture, but queer culture as well: our music, magazines, friends, and community. Question people who think inside the box. But also question those who claim to think outside it. Because in the end, your wild and precious identity* is yours alone.

* Apologies to Mary Oliver

73 Comments

Wendi link

1/18/2012 01:18:33 pm

Exacty. Nicely done!

Kimberlin

1/19/2012 05:06:19 am

Because there are no feeling with that .....

5/23/2015 04:22:04 am

The reason why butches do not choose to transition, is because they are NOT men at all, in any way AT ALL!...AND, I find it offensive that butch women who clearly display behaviours of men, but are ARE NOT men, and then use their female gender to discriminate against transmen, absolutely abhorrent! Fact! I have seen it time and time again. Also very sad and shame on the lesbian and gay community who have ample funding for services, and yet transmen, particularly, as with transwomen, but not as much, see none of this funding! If you are a straight transperson, even less funding, plenty for gay trans though! Confused? Yeah, well so the hell am I!

jaguar

11/16/2015 11:26:36 pm

I've saw women who looked to much like a female and there voices to womanly and weak and fragile unlike a man. They act like there man but it don't fit them and them trying to be big bad and tuff looking just didn't match them period. Them kind just don't fit in the mans wanna be world.

Bee listy link

1/18/2012 01:38:35 pm

Cheers!

Max link

1/18/2012 02:23:53 pm

Thanks for this, BW. Back in my college days, a lot of my butch friends were realizing they were trans, which left me totally confused. At that time a wise older butch reminded me gently that there was power and grace in being a woman comfortable in men's clothing. She also noted that the sexiest attribute you can possess is self-confidence, no matter what your gender or orientation, and we all need to find that for ourselves. Thanks for the timely reminder!

1/18/2012 02:24:45 pm

Something that cements the distinction between butch women and trans men, to me, is the existence of femme trans men. Not all trans men are particularly butch!

Butch Wonders link

1/18/2012 03:06:20 pm

True, true. And, of course, there are female-identified butches who present more like gay men. Does that make them less "butch?" I don't think so.

1/19/2012 05:12:06 pm

I don't know. I think that gets tough because butch is often not just an adjective to describe certain qualities but also a noun that becomes some folks' identities, and one can't really quibble with someone's identity (or at least I don't believe I can or should.)

I also believe "butch" isn't all that well-defined, or at least there's no universal queer consensus on what butch is. I think fey masculinity in people assigned female at birth might not be best described as butchness, but that's one opinion in a sea of opinions about this stuff.

Kyle link

1/18/2012 02:26:43 pm

I think that those comments also come with an underlying sexism, indicating that maleness is superior to femaleness. The idea that transitioning from female to male is the logical and preferred endpoint of all masculine women, for example.

I get frustrated as well, by the idea that masculine = male or that feminine = female. These are separate concepts: presentation and manner vs. gender. As you point out, not all female bodied individuals who prefer masculine presentation actually desire to be male, or identify their gender as male. Different parts of the person, along with a lot of other things like sexual preference, sexual practice, etc.

As to 'genderqueer', there are a lot of different ways people relate to and interpret that word, definitely. I identify as genderqueer in that my gender identity is dual, I identify as male and female. I know people who identify as neither male, nor female. There are as many variations on genderqueer as there are genderqueers I've met. Much of what you refer to above seems to concern itself with gender presentation more than gender identity. And though those two influence and play off each other, presentation and identity are two different aspects. So though I don't disbelieve that people might use 'genderqueer' as a description of how they present their gender, most of the genderqueer individuals I know see that as a deeper element of their identity. Again, that's just based on my self-knowledge and the people I happen to have met.

I've been asked before, if my masculine leanings (which include sometimes using male pronouns), are precursors to transitioning. I've had people ask if I was 'baby trans'. The truth is, for some of us, neither gender endpoint represents a destination we would be comfortable inhabiting. I don't think people mean to be rude with those questions, I think they are are revealing their assumptions about the desirability of choosing a particular gender and sticking with the binary.

OK, I've gone on long enough. I enjoyed the post, thanks for writing it.

1/18/2012 02:44:01 pm

Thanks for the really excellent thoughts, Kyle. Yes, I've definitely heard "genderqueer" used to describe a deeper sense of identity. I have also met ciswomen who present *as* women (and very feminine ones, at that) 100 percent of the time, yet call themselves "genderqueer" because they believe that there is male and female "energy" in everyone. "Genderqueer" sometimes seems to mean "really strong ally." I don't doubt that these individuals see themselves as genuinely genderqueer, but if there's nothing "genderqueer" or androgynous about their self-presentation, this seems to challenge notions of genderqueer-ness. Interesting.

1/18/2012 02:58:17 pm

'genderqueer' has become a much broader and wider umbrella term since I first heard of it and adopted it for myself. Now days, if I have an opportunity to talk about my gender identity, I add some other words to the description, like 'bi-gender', 'gender binary non-conforming' and 'transgender'. Transgender is another very wide umbrella term that is often misunderstood and misconstrued. If I can use all of these terms, plus 'queer' to describe myself, I can create a much more complete picture for the person I'm talking to.

I think some people see 'genderqueer' as a term meaning something more like 'queering gender', which isn't wrong, it's just not exactly what I mean when I use it. Another case among many where a single label doesn't tell the whole story of someone's identity.

Jannice

1/20/2012 05:43:53 am

Yes it's very interesting Kyle's approach also. But all i wanna say is that seems to me a lot of words and concepts to get stressed about. With the respect of every opinion, I personally think Kyle, nor anyone here cares what I am, neither I care of what each one is.. I care is what are u made of inside, what positive contribution you could have in my life regardless of what you wanna stereotype yourself. Reason is simple, cause everyone has the same rights to expect from me the same contribution in their lives. This is why I think no one should care what u wanna change in your body or how you wanna be projected.
Yet I did like how well explained are all these concept for those who still wanna stressed out with a stereotypical life.
It's extremely informative and interesting. Ty:-)

1/20/2012 06:17:51 am

OMG!!! You've said it all girl! As a fem lesbian I didn't find this words any woman-less at all. Glad you brought this approach with your own example. Loved your point of view!

1/20/2012 06:35:02 am

~sorry for those 2repeated replies on this comment. That was meant for Kay Jones. Idk why they showed up here. Lol. But my first reply it was meant for this comment though.

JustMe

11/1/2012 07:58:57 am

"I think that those comments also come with an underlying sexism, indicating that maleness is superior to femaleness. The idea that transitioning from female to male is the logical and preferred endpoint of all masculine women, for example". -Kyle

Wow, we must have read 2 different writings because I didn't get that at all. "underlying sexism"? Please, ya think maybe its yr thinking and the author didn't write that. As the blog was written she pretty much see it from all sides, which is very surprising.

Maybe the thinking-thing [that its automatically about sexism] about is our cultural or American exceptionalism, which we are/were all infected with; it is a choice to keep it or not. At times its best to push away media for awhile and just be.

Yes, American culture is always concerned with being number one and it doesn't assist us in cooperating any better. That's probably there is not cooperation in Americans, unless it is a disaster.

I will say this...no one is superior, however, we are all mutual.

bookish butch

1/18/2012 10:14:00 pm

Interesting. It never occured to me to anything but, me.
I like the term butch, it 'fits'. I don't think of myself as a man, so why transition? it isn't who I am, I don't want to be a man, I am butch. To some I imagine that is old-fashioned, so be it:-) I respect peoples 'choices' and am comfortable with mine.
Thought provoking post and comments, Thanks.

Rachel link

1/19/2012 12:30:46 am

Thanks for posting, this is a super important topic. I get an odd corollary question, because I date butch/stud women, so people sometimes ask why I don't *just* date trans men. My answer is typically, 'because they're men'... (why would you ask me that?)

Its just as strange a question as, 'why don't you transition'. I guess there is still a lot of confusion in folk's minds about gender identity and gender presentation, if its still so easy to conflate a masculine presentation with a male identity.

Ideally we would love and support and accept whatever works best for folks individually, while understanding that we have different paths. We all just want to be ourselves, and that looks different for each of us.

1/19/2012 04:13:44 am

"ciswoman (someone who was born biologically female)"

a cis woman is actually someone who was assigned female at birth and ended up identifying at female.

1/19/2012 04:30:29 am

Thank you for the correction! Bad oversight on my part. I'll fix it now.

pamela

1/19/2012 04:48:30 am

From a femme prospective, I truly believe having a supportive partner is so important. Its not whats up with physic it has more to do with whats exchanged mentally. It seems to me me that its more about respect of each others roles that can make your butch the happiest most content person. And a happy femme too.

Kilzone

5/4/2012 02:55:00 pm

Thank you for your words Pamela, that brings the point home. It takes a strong, smart Femme who knows what she is doing and knows the butch/femme dance enough to be able to stroke her Butches ego enough to make her Butch feel very powerful and strong. It makes me feel very comfortable with her when she treats me with such respect!

kilzone

5/4/2012 03:03:42 pm

I know how a lot of you feel or think. My point is DO NOT jump on the FAD train that has been running for a awhile now. If you are young...check into things as Stone Butch, Butch/Femme Dynamic. Life makes more sense. don't just make harsh decisions or listen to gang of what is the coolest item to buy for the year! I have been there. I know!

C.d. Kirven link

1/19/2012 05:20:34 am

I'm butch not Trans because I have no desire to be a man... I'm fine with being a woman who is comfortable with her masculine image...period!

Nina

1/19/2012 05:26:27 am

Great post. I much appreciated the voice. Sometimes, I feel that the community has started a fad shift into trans-centric identities and me as a lesbian woman could be losing more of our butch females to gender altering surgeries, medications and the like. Identity is always a personal choice. However I do tend to wonder what has influenced some of those choices and if they will still feel like the right choices 5-10 years later. This is not a knock on the trans members of our community at all. But I am a lesbian who still likes to date and share intimate times with a female (identified butch, aggressive, femme, whatever) body. It's nice to know that the more masculine side of the spectrum still has those who want to keep their female bodies too.

Another Holocene Human

5/30/2016 08:30:23 am

In point of fact, what drives transsexuals to transition is gender dysphoria, not social fads. If someone, however, falls into social pressure and goes for hormones or surgery rashly, they will know they made a mistake within months when dysphoria hits them for the first time, not 5 to 10 years down the road.

If you don't have gender dysphoria, changing hormones or changing sex characteristics through surgery will give you dysphoria and you will know very quickly.

Also, "your butch females" aren't yours, they're human beings, and some of them aren't female, they just haven't figured out or can't face coming out yet.

C.D. Kirven link

1/19/2012 05:37:51 am

I don't know how wise it is as insulting by saying you can't be a woman comfortable in woman's clothing...Its more ignorant than anything. Its sexism because we as a society are more comfortable with men in women's clothing and they can label that anyway they want with these kind of insensitive questions. We have Eddie Mrurphy, Martin Lawerence, Tyler Perry running around in women's clothing making us laugh without questioning their sexuality. But is there a female comedian running around in men's clothes making us laugh? NO! Because we have been programmed by society and how is proper to be a lady. F@CK that! I live my life on my terms... NO APOLOGISES, NO LABELS! The question is insulting to Trans men bc...they are MEN! Trans women...are WOMEN! lesbian is a form of sexual expression... its like comparing apples to watermelons... We need more education on the subject!

MaxV61

1/26/2012 07:54:03 pm

Very well-stated, C.D. Kirven. Trans men are men, and Trans women are women. To continue to draw a separate distinction between them further erodes the strides that have been made within the LGBT community. That's where most of the infighting, brow-beating and insults come from: within the community itself. There CANNOT be any one defining distinction for any one gender expression--we are all as alike as we are different. Cross-dressers are not necessarily homosexual, masculine-identified butches don't always transition and ain't it grand to not HAVE to fit into that old nasty gender binary? But I have this to say: why does being butch ID as being male-identified? Why does it have to equal masculine? Why can't it just "be"? There are Trans women who are masculine, Trans men who are feminine. Why repeat and buy into the melodrama by using the terms?

C.D. Kirven

1/19/2012 05:40:30 am

This was @ the comment left by MAX. The comment you can't be a woman comfortable in men's clothes... TYPO ABOVE!

Wendy Moore

1/19/2012 05:48:18 am

Always the sexiest thing anyone can do is be confident. No matter how you express your sexuality or an approach to gender, being confident and knowing that this is who you are is the greatest gift you can give yourself and the world around you.

Jade

1/19/2012 06:01:37 am

I take issue with the idea that 'trans' specifically means 'transsexual' (aka, someone who has gone through physical transition). I identify as 'non-binary trans' which is an identity that is completely invisible in this article. From what I understand 'transgender' is seen by many as an umbrella term that can mean transsexual, cross-dressing, drag, genderqueer, or any gender non-conforming or non-binary identity. Why must we equate 'trans' with testosterone?

1/19/2012 05:19:15 pm

A great point, Jade. To clarify: when I say "trans," I'm referring to anyone who identifies AS a member of the gender to which they were not assigned at birth. This is irrespective of whether the person undergoes any aspects of a physical transition. While I am not equating "trans" with testosterone, you're right that I'm equating it with an actual gender identification, which would not include behaviors that are non-gender-conforming. Under the definition you mention above, I'd have to call myself "trans" because I wear a tie to work sometimes. This would make me uncomfortable, because I do not identify as trans. I don't like thinking of trans as behaviors rather than identities. Does that distinction make sense?

I have never heard the term "non-binary trans." Say more! What does this mean to you? How is it defined?

1/22/2012 02:16:29 am

I did not mean to imply that everyone who fits that general description of 'trans' SHOULD identify as trans....but I am saying that some folks who never intend to identify as a man still do identify as trans. I appreciate your delineation between gender expression and gender identity, but is it not true that one's gender expression is an outward, physical manifestation of one's identity? In this instance I could envision two people, both with very similar gender expressions, but whose identity is different (one identifies as butch, the other as non-binary trans or genderqueer

1/22/2012 02:32:12 am

Sorry, hit send too soon. Anyway, those two people may express gender in similar ways but their gender identities could be very different.

non-binary trans is a better descriptor for me because I feel I am neither a woman nor a man. The importance of adding 'non-binary' is that the most frequent interpretation of trans assumes that folks are upholding the gender binary as they transition - female-to-male, or male-to-female. I do not want to transition, but that does not mean I maintain a female identity...I am still trans, but non-binary.

maddox link

2/3/2012 03:30:44 am

Non-Binary Trans* referes to anyone who identifies as transgender but not trans-male/female. I identify as neutrois - or neutral-gendered - which is a non-binary identity because it is neither female nor male. I am transitioning, but not to male.

There are many more variations of non-binary, genderqueer, and other trans* identities. For instance, some transguys will identify as "genderqueer transmale" in that they identify as guys, but not 100%, there is wiggle room.

As Jade points out, the _expression_ of people can be the same, but their identity may be different.

mx. punk link

3/26/2012 02:04:40 pm

"Non-Binary Trans* refers to anyone who identifies as transgender but not trans-male/female." word, maddox.

i'm transitioning from cafab to non-binary, rather than from cafab to m. my transition is mostly social, but it may eventually include hormones and/or top surgery.

"non-binary trans*" is about as specific as i can get about my gender; i just know that i'm neither a woman nor a man and i'm cool with the vagueness.

3/26/2012 02:04:49 pm

3/26/2012 02:04:55 pm

1/19/2012 07:31:12 am

I have been butch my entire 64 yrs on planet.for a brief time when I was quite young I thot I cd only be a mom or a dad and I new I didn't want to be a mom or a housewife.cuz my.mom totally fucked over... so I picked dad/man as what I wanted...
Then I read Freud & he said that was pens envy.....yuk!!! Then I learned more about misogny & power.& oppression and came to the.conclusion that.I never want to.be a man cuz why the fuck wood I want to.become my oppressor?? I.just want to help build.a world where people can be whoever they are without expensive surgery or stranger chemicals injected into their bodies...who we are shd be determined by how we walk on the world & how we treat all other life around.us.

Alxxx link

1/19/2012 09:08:33 am

This woman does not look cute in dresses. Fact.

Kay Jones

1/19/2012 09:11:14 am

I'm grateful for the thoughtful discussion. I know everybody on here has good intentions so I don't want to intentionally hurt anybody. I do feel slightly put off being a transwoman, who was born with male parts, but identify with and think of myself as a woman (sometimes in the wrong body). There are some of us who have thought about transitioning "completely". Even though I have "maleness", I don't hate it, but it doesn't mean I embrace it either. I myself don't like the hairiness or the Adam's apple, etc. I've eliminated the hair, but certain things are beyond what I want to do for economic, social/work, reasons, even personal reasons. I am a woman, and not a man masquerading as a woman or a man wishing to be a woman. My thoughts, feelings, preferences, mannerisms, etc are all female... I just have a few physical attributes that don't conform to that "image".

I love feminine women, butch woman, fem guys, butch guys, genderqueer, trans, CDs, whomever. I respect everybody I meet for being who they are. The only people I don't respect are those who feel the need to belittle other people for being who they are. Typically I find this in some hyper-masculine men who must have some deep-seated homophobia and then belittle others who don't conform to their narrow view of gender norms. I have met a lot of very masculine men who are very accepting though of everybody, so I don't want people to take that the wrong way. It is very rare that I find a "emo", gay, lesbian, trans, cd, etc who is unaccepting, although I occasionally come across some who feel they are superior to others (don't know if this is due to the group they align themselves with--doubt it-- but more likely is just due to who they are as a person, and they happen to be gay/lesbian/trans/genderqueer/emo/whomever they are with or without a label).

I just wanted to say that because I have some of those things doesn't necessarily make me "male", it just means I don't want to go through the pain of changing those supposed "maleness" attributes for other's benefit. I wouldn't say it makes me less female any less than saying a 6' tall woman is less of a woman because she's closer the the physical characteristics of a typical man than an average woman.

I'm hoping people aren't going through physical transformations for fad reasons or for any other person's reasons except their own. I actually feel a little sad that some consider me less woman than a butch lesbian woman simply for some physical attributes I have. Every person is on some spectrum of what society deems "maleness" or "femaleness" and wish society could accept people for who they are by their own definition rather than by other's definitions made on the spot through their own filters and limited knowledge of the person whom they are making the judgement.

1/20/2012 06:24:49 am

Edison

1/19/2012 09:22:45 am

I have been sniped at my a straight friend, when I was discussing butch identity with another butch 'Well why don't you just slap a dick on and call yourself a man?!?! Since you dress like one and kind of act like one and apparently are okay with that!' my response (besides a stunned expression) was 'because I don't WANT to BE a man. I just want to be me.' People don't know what do do with us, those with female bodies that choose to present masculinely. They're so used to the binary and push it so hard that sometimes (at least myself) I think we start to question what we know about ourselves. ('Well I'm comfortable like this but so many people say it's only a layover on my way to trans*... maybe I'm just fooling myself....') We don't fit in the neat little boxes to be categorized and filed away neatly but that doesn't mean that we are not our true selves. Just remember that despite what others sometimes say, no one knows you better than yourself.

Femme Princess

1/19/2012 09:49:46 am

Thank God for creating handsome butches for us to love and admire. It is you, butches, that make our world perfect. Thank you.

Litz

1/19/2012 03:13:40 pm

Amen!!!

1/19/2012 04:54:29 pm

I am glad you enjoy loving and admiring butches. I love and admire butches, too.

But please don't think or say we exist "for" femmes to love or admire. That's frustrating to hear, much in the same way it would be frustrating to hear a straight man say that women exist for him to admire. It's objectification.

dania

1/20/2012 12:00:13 am

Thanks Femme Princess

Van

1/19/2012 10:56:27 am

Great post but would like to add that many trans guys do not transition to be masculine but to be male. masculine and male are not the same things. There are cis and trans guys who are femme identified.

diamond

1/19/2012 12:41:42 pm

I'm happy to be an old fashioned political androgynous dyke.I have no desire to be particularly butch or femme, and am not attracted to women who present one way or another all the time. For me it's always been a daily choice. The idea that a decision or feeling I had in my twenties would still have to be operative in my sixties is ridiculous. I have never understood why lesbians and gay men need or want to have a fixed identity. I chose to be a lesbian to get away from that kind of imposition and rigidity.

Choice

4/20/2012 12:48:20 pm

That you consider lesbianism a choice indicates why you react negatively to those lesbians and gay men who "need or want to have a fixed identity".
The concept of "choice" or "free will" in "deciding" on a "lifestyle" or gender "expression" is not one that is universally accepted and currently divides within "our" community; Cynthia Nixon found this out when she said she "chose" to be a lesbian. I believe her. I believe this is true for some lesbians, but not all.

I believe I chose to be a lesbian as a political act many decades ago, and I remain happy with my choice. My wife believe she was born a lesbian, and is now out despite decades of denial and disapproval by her very conservative fundamentalist family who believe that homosexuality is a sin, and conversion from sin is part of repentance and acceptance of their form of Christianity... so which is it? Nature or nurture? I suspect both, without hierarchy of type. And I am okay with that.

bear

1/19/2012 02:49:12 pm

Respectfully, it's interesting to me that you talk a lot about not bowing to the culturally imposed ideas of what a man or a woman is, then go on to essentially reenforce some of those within this column. some thoughts:

- given the myriad ways of expressing and experiencing physical bodies, what exactly is a "female body"? Particularly considering that trans women and other folks who were not assigned female at birth but nevertheless identify as women don't seem to be included in this conception of / discussion about butch being laid out here.

- the unstated assumption throughout this article is that when we talk about butches, we are actually talking about cis women; but butch includes trans women butches.

- and sometimes that includes an adam's apple and other things certain folks may not associate with a "female body". just sayin'.

- genderqueer is not "fashionable", it's also not a fad, a trend, or a bandwagon.

- genderqueer =/= androgynous or any other one specific thing/ presentation/ politic.

- please put a space in between trans and woman, the way you put a space between trans and man.

1/19/2012 05:10:04 pm

Hi bear--thanks for the thoughtful comments. A few responses:

First, re: genderqueer. I've seen it primarily defined as I explained in the post, but I do know that there are many other definitions as well. For the sake of talking about it, I choose to define "genderqueer" as identification as neither male nor female. This includes all kinds of people: butch, femme, intersex, asexual, and everything else. I think it's a completely legit and very real identity that may or may not coexist with other identities. I tried to convey this above. However, I have also encountered many people, particularly in the past year or two, who identify as "genderqueer" but do not, in fact, identify as (1) both female and male, or (2) as neither female nor male. Indeed, a few people I have asked about their genderqueer identification have said things like, "It's an identity I claim because I think most people can be attracted to men OR women." [Eh?] This is what I mean when I say that "genderqueer" has become fashionable. Many people now claim it as an identity as a way of aligning with the queer community. I do not mean that everyone--or even most of those--who claim it as an identity are merely leaping onto a bandwagon. But I do think that some people are. Honestly, I don't know whether this is a good thing or not.

Regarding the space between "trans" and "woman," thanks for the correction! (And apologies for the punctuation error.)

As far as gender essentialism goes: interesting points. It's very difficult to talk about gender without using words like "male" and "female" with at least *some* attendant assumptions. When I say things like, "If you are a woman-identified butch lesbian, becoming a trans man is not 'going all the way,'" I do not mean to offend trans women. Nor do I mean to suggest that they are not "real" women. But you are quite right that such a statement does not apply to them. It's difficult to talk about gender without making certain assumptions, and I try my best to avoid these. I appreciate your pointing out where I fail to do so. The fact is, when I think about trans women, I don't usually envision them as butch lesbians. Perhaps this is because none of the trans women I have ever met identify as butch. But of course, butch trans women *do* exist. If you know any (or identify as one yourself), I would love to talk with you about your experiences--and even dedicate a post or two to it. It's a voice we don't often hear in the queer community, and it deserves to be heard.

I disagree, though, that my post assumes that "butch" means "cis woman." I think butches can be men, women, trans men, trans women, intersex people, or anyone else. For me, "butch" is about a way of *being* in the world, not about the physical reality of a person's body.

Shaed

1/20/2012 02:04:49 am

Just because some people misuse the term genderqueer, or aren't articulate enough about their identity for you, or don't fit the stereotype of genderqueerness you have in your head and are thus assumed cis, does not mean you can call someone's gender "fashionable." That kind of rhetoric stinks of butch-flight bullshit which why this thread is rife with it. You invited it into your home.

And asexual is a sexual orientation. It doesn't have any more to do with gender than any other sexual orientation.

2/3/2012 03:34:52 am

As Shaed points out, asexual is a sexual orientation, not a gender identity. Sorry, I just really needed to clarify that.

2/3/2012 08:38:58 am

Yup, I know that asexual is a sexual orientation. I meant that "genderqueer" can encompass lots of different kinds of people, regardless of their sexual orientation or identity. That's what I meant by saying that this includes "all kinds of people." Sorry if that was confusing.

And @ Shaed: "butch-flight bullshit?" C'mon. If you're a regular reader of this blog, I sure hope you know me better than that.

3/26/2012 01:54:28 pm

..."what exactly is a 'female body'?"

good point. my body is generally labeled "female"-- but it happens to belong to a non-binary person and is therefore non-binary. a female body is just a body that belongs to a female-identified person, right?

and as for genderqueer being fashionable: it isn't very fashionable here on the ground. i know it's snazzy in internet-land to be genderqueer, but it just causes strife and general shitty-ness in real life. i'm slowly losing pieces of my family-- and it doesn't feel very fashionable. but, yeah, i think genderqueer is "cutting edge" online, right now.

1/19/2012 03:12:33 pm

Thank you for writing this! It can be very tough to articulate the distinction, but I think you have done a marvelous job of it!
This topic has been very prevalent on our house of late since my roommate just finished directing a video of B.C.Three's new song "Don't let them tell you who you are!" I don't know if this comment area is exactly the most appropriate way to share this with you, but it's so perfectly relevant that I wanted to let you know about it! Thanks again for your blog!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyeNhQ7NBXQ&feature=youtu.be

Winnie Pitawanakwat

1/20/2012 02:11:06 am

Just to add my two cents. I have a gay son and for many years gay was the only word I knew. Now we have bi sexuals, transgenders, gays and lesbian and probbly many others that I had not heard. Now I am very lucky to learn another description that I could use for my Medicine Wheel Teachings. In our Native culture we call you the Two-Spirited people. In the time before European culture came into the Americas, the Two-Spirited people were looked upon as people with many blessings. They were gifted to do to double the ceremonies as they were identified as both male and female. I believe we all have some per sent of our opposite energies. I am hetro but I can be more masculine than many men and I nor they have no problem with that. Anyway, miiwetch (Ojibwe), quyanah (Yupik Eskimo), thank you.

Sue

1/21/2012 01:03:18 am

As I started the coming out process, I read everything I could on everything about homosexuality. As with many other people, my "outing" was difficult and harrowing. I came across the Native Culture's "Two Spirit." Even though it appears that I carry no Native blood, I have always identified with the culture. I choose to express my feelings in tattoo. I have a wolf, backed by a dreamcatcher, with a Pride feather. I have entitled it Two Spirit. I found out that many two spirited people were/are teachers, shamans, and healers. I knew I had found my place. I truly identify as a butch lesbian, who teaches as a calling, not just a job.

Tammy

1/20/2012 04:26:51 am

i am a older butch and until i read this, i was totally confused about who i was or was supposed to be.Thank you for giving me myself back.

Jannice link

1/20/2012 05:26:18 am

Hate to stereotype even myself, but let's say I'm a fem lesbian. I feel attracted to butch-type women. My girlfriend is a butch, and I love every single of her female attributes! So I'm glad that you explained so well the misconception of butch and transgender women. As long this world is surrounded by humans, it'll be also surrounded by ignorance and stereotyping minds not only for the butch woman but also for those dykes who aren't attracted to fem lesbians. People is time to open those eyes! Enjoy who you are, who you are with, and let others enjoy it in their own ways too. Like u said, "at the end, your wild and precious identity is all yours alone."

Bev Jo link

1/20/2012 06:18:42 am

I agree with a lot of what you said. It's often hard because those who support Butches get censored. Not to mention threatened. 22 years ago, I co-wrote Dykes-Loving-Dykes, which included 55 pages on Butch identity and oppression. I've put that chapter, and will soon include an update, at my blog:

■Supporting Butches Supports All Lesbians

http://bevjoradicallesbian.wordpress.com/

PumaJ

1/20/2012 11:50:12 am

Joe, I very much appreciate your very cogent commentary. In #5 you said, "... Being butch does not set you on some path to 'full' masculinity. A butch woman's masculinity is not different in degree from that of a butch man or FTM; it is different in kind."

Yes, exactly. It is female masculinity. A type of masculine energy that arises out of & is expressed through a female body. It is that energy that attracts me like no other. To me, a femme lesbian/queer woman, female masculine energy feels distinctly different than does that of male masculinity. It is palpable regardless of hairstyle, clothing, makeup or lack of. In my perception the energy has nothing to do with outward presentation.

We do live in a dominant culture that is still inherently sexist & in some ways quite misogynist. Thus, I do sometimes wonder if for some the discomfort of being female is due to internalized misogyny &/or sexism. I get it that for some the discomfort is due to being certain that one is a male in the wrong body.

As a feminist I believe it us as women who get to define the expression of our femaleness regardless of which wonderful & powerful form it takes. I am a woman who owns high femme as my gender. My sexuality is lesbian/queer.

1/20/2012 05:28:00 pm

Thanks for the thoughts--much appreciated!

But... who is "Joe?"

1/21/2012 01:08:35 am

Thanks, BW for your awesome post. This certainly has raised a whole lot of interesting aspects of people's feelings about themselves and the culture in general. I'm just happy to finally be me....even though I don't know exactly what that is. Life is a jouney, not a destination. I love the road and revel in all that is made apparent to me as I travel along.

Jenny

1/27/2012 01:25:16 pm

Late to the party -- just started catching up on BW posts. But I'm not very good at keeping my mouth shut.

I'd like to add another slant to orientation.

I'm a trans woman (oversimplifies it, but it'll do for the moment). I'm frustrated by the construct that wants to label my orientation as straight, or gay, or bi. I've come to understand myself as queer-oriented. That's not necessarily the same thing as attraction to anyone who's LGBT. There are relatively gender-normative ways of being any of those, and there are quite queer ways of being any of those. (I would say gender queer, but that term seems to have generated more heat than light in this discussion.) The cis women I find attractive tend to be butch/masculine lesbians. The frequently-seen uber-masculine gay male world doesn't do anything for me, but there are gay guys outside of that "we are MEN" context that I really warm to. Trans people who insert themselves seamlessly into our gender-binary culture don't excite me, but let me meet someone whose gender fucks with my head and I'm starry-eyed. (Note I'm not saying about whether certain "types" are good or bad; just reporting on what I've observed in myself as far as who I'm attracted to.) My current gf hardly fits any kind of gender-normative femaleness, but she's definitely a woman, a trans woman.

If we can conceive of gender outside the binary of female/male, or even outside the female/fmale continuum, why can't sexuality be outside the gay/bi/straight continuum?

(Re-reading this, I'm afraid it's not as clear as I'd like. But this is a relatively new understanding of myself, and I'm still trying to sort out what it is and how it works. If you flame me, please do it gently.)

3/26/2012 02:11:04 pm

sorry for the tripled comment! i clicked "submit" and nothing happened... so i did it again and again... oops. i must learn patience.

i love this post, by the way. for all my fuss over "genderqueer", i sincerely found this post useful and i've bookmarked it. thanks for sharing your brain with us!

m/andy

3/27/2012 10:12:06 pm

I am the gender in between, ... I was born female, ... identify as butch, I and am taken as trans often, I identify with the latter two easily, female or male ??? either dont sit right ..... i am just me the gender in between love me or hate me !!! too bad because it's how i was borne and it is who I am !!!

twiz

10/23/2012 04:16:59 pm

I identify myself as butch but couldn't labeling yourself in general be social brain washing we are who we are no matter how sure or unsure about who or what we are but I thing in our community we need to worry less about labeling ourselves there isn't enough information or education on the subjects to clearly do so im happy just being me labels just make it easier for other to get a sense of how I am

LastButchStanding

5/19/2015 09:34:18 pm

"A butch woman's masculinity is not different in degree from that of a butch man or FTM; it is different in kind."

That is a very helpful statement, but I think "kind" needs to be expanded upon. Can you say how you might define "kind"? Would it be something like the difference between a different breed of animal eg. a cocker spaniel or labrador? Or the difference between a different species of animal eg. dog or cat? Or something else?

Alex

2/25/2016 02:46:03 am

I guess the reason I call myself genderqueer, is because I do want some aspects of a male body but not others, i.e. I would very much like a flat chest, adams apple (and the deeper voice to go with it), no hips, but I don't want facial hair or a penis or body hair.

Also, despite looking as androgynous as I can, which, as a female bodied person, means wearing mostly men's clothing and having short hair (note, I don't do this just to pass as androgynous, but because its just how I like to dress/look), I don't consider myself masculine. But not feminine either.
Everyone's different, but generally speaking most butch lesbians are WAY more masculine than I am. Although I try to look like a boy, and very nearly decided to go on T and transition as ftm, I realised that I didn't want to be male, or female, and decided to hold of on the hormones.
I actually end up being mistaken for a gay woman half the time and a rather young-looking gay guy the rest of the time, which I'm cool with - but its funny how society seems to be so confused.

DC Hampton Jacobs

9/23/2019 12:35:46 pm

I want to ask a provocative question: Is "queer" a sexist term? Is it a homophobic term? I ask because:

1) It seems to take gender binary for granted by labeling those who fall outside of same.

2) It professes to be a blanket term for anyone who isn't heterosexual/cisgender, blurring important distinctions between people of different genders/sexual orientations

3) It contains not only the (numerous and sometimes confusing) new meanings activists have conferred on it, but also the old, decidedly negative meanings. That negativity doesn't disappear just because a certain group of people are bent on "reclaiming" or "reforming" a term. That would only happen if bigots stopped using "queer". And it seems unfair to me that only LGBT+ folk should have to shoulder such a tricky, loaded term while cis/het folk do not.

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