Butch ≠ Misogynist.

11/13/2012

I've been troubled lately by some writings by butch authors. Things like:

I want my femme to look good all the time. I expect her to dress up, put on makeup, etc., whenever we go out.
Don't open the door for me. I'm the one who opens the doors, BBQs, and fixes things, thank you very much.
Femmes are so emotional. I'm not. It's a butch thing. Don't expect me to know what you're thinking, and quit crying all the time.

I'm paraphrasing, but not by much. These kind of sentiments strike me as sexist/misogynistic. I mean... we all have the right to preferences--I don't dispute that. But imagine that a heterosexual cis man wrote the things above. ("Women are so emotional. I'm not. It's a guy thing." Or insisting that only he gets to BBQ or fix things.) Sure, he has the right to prefer those things, and they would probably lead me to suspect that he was a sexist, and someone I wouldn't like very much.

Why should these kinds of sentiments be different when a butch expresses them about a relationship she wants with a femme? Is it inherently different simply because they're both female? I'd argue that it's not.

When mentioned this to my DGF (dear girlfriend), she laughed. "Don't you know that's how most people think of butches?" she asked. "When people think butch, they think of people who want to play a traditionally 'male' role in a relationship." She went on to explain that this is part of the reason she doesn't identify as butch herself, even though (trust me) she totally is.

This all gave me pause. Sure, my DGF is more than a decade older than me, so maybe her sense of people's perceptions of "butch" are different for that reason. Or maybe there's just something I'm failing to comprehend about butch-femme relationships, since I don't prefer to be in them myself.

What do you all think? Do the kinds of comments I bulleted above strike you as sexist or misogynistic? Are they the kinds of things you assume a person thinks when she tells you she identifies as butch?

62 Comments

Melanie

11/13/2012 04:49:11 am

Those comments are sexist. ("My" femme. Please. She's not your property.)
And those sentiments are extraordinarily limiting to those of us who claim an identity but don't want to or can't live up to those standards. For example, I am strongly butch-identified but I do not fix things. Nor do I want to. My butch girlfriend loves to sew and crochet. Who says that either of us is somehow less of a butch?

MainelyButch link

11/21/2012 03:19:55 am

so if I said "my" girlfriend would that count as assuming she's my property too? I don't think so. Neither does calling my girlfriend my Femme, she IS Femme, my Femme girlfriend. Being Butch means so many things, but most of all it means being who you ARE, and not all of us embody the so called "standards" in my opinion.

MainelyButch link

11/21/2012 03:34:39 am

Guess we could just start saying "THE" girlfriend or "THE" Femme...make her into an inanimate object completely. LOL

Kate

7/15/2014 06:56:08 am

I find all of this very confusing. I am a lesbian 'wife'. Yes, it is true. I am the wife. I am blonde, pretty (so I have told my entire life) and also, I am told, very feminine. BUT, I don't try to be these things. I just am these things. My partner is what my Mom calls "boyish " and what you call Butch. OK, yes she is a butch. She insists on driving (I will never drive when she is in the car as she gets very impatient with my driving) and she insists on controlling absolutely everything to the extent that if a man did the things she did he would be called a sexist chauvinist pig. She is dominant in every way and even if I wanted to be more dominant she would get uncomfortable. I am not talking about sexually specifically, but yes that too. I never asked to be in this "role" but I know when we are seen people would call me "the girl." She will not even consider the idea of my going on holidays alone. Sometimes I feel like her property. Unfortunately for me everywhere I go only men check me out. This only makes it worse and enforces this idea that I am the "femme" and the woman. I am tired of the labels and I am tired of feeling like an object. It is not flattering. She is definitely not a feminist, even though I am. I really honestly think she is a man sometimes. She is very much like a guy. (Trust me--She doesn't find this insulting. I think she actually likes it). Again, this all is confusing for me. One thing I do know is that she is NOT supportive of women who transition to being men. She considers herself a woman first and foremost. She has many female and male friends, but my friendships have shrunk because she thinks everyone male and female "want" me. The truth is only guys ever hit on me.

Sherlock Holmes

5/12/2014 02:20:28 am

Wrong. Stop inflicting your ridiculous opinions on the public.

Helen

3/29/2016 06:18:21 pm

im so sorryto hear that Kate, youre in a relationship with an abusive person. doesn't matter if male or female, or non binary. Abuse is abuse, that has nothing to do with negotiated and respected roles. i've been there, its sometiems difficult to see, hope you stay safe and got free

Jesse MacGregor-Jones link

11/13/2012 04:51:25 am

The woman that I date sometimes wears make-up and sometimes she doesn't. I don't care. I'm attracted to her just as she is. I don't expect her to look in any certain way. I get the door for her, unless she beats me there. I don't fuss over it and I don't think she really cares either. Most of the time when we go out, she pays the bill because she makes more and she generally insists on it. I don't argue most of the time. I pay when I can.

Point is, there are no defined 'roles' in our relationship and I don't think there should be. I love her as exactly as she is and I would never have expectations of how she should look or act. In fact, when she has her hair in a pony tail in the back of a baseball at, with sweat pants on, I get totally hot and bothered. LOL.

My two cents. ;)

Jesse

Jen

12/6/2013 07:25:00 am

We as women need to move past the 1950s and let go of ridiculous roles of butch and femme. I've been an out dyke for 20 years and nothing disgusts me more than a hyper masculine woman. Come on! Does it make it okay when someone with ovaries acts like a douche guy and is allowed to do so under some misguided notion of gender politics. A jerk is a jerk is a jerk. I shouldn't but I somehow expect more from women born women. Thanks for listening.

Lycere Cunningham link

5/5/2014 05:48:45 pm

You wrote: "I somehow expect more from women born women."

Yep, women should totally be expected to just be les around by their nose, right? If you think a certain behaviour a Butch is exhibiting is jerky behavior, then women born women just shouldn't engage in that behaviour, right? Because women are supposed to just cow-tow and shut up and stop doing things that make other people uncomfortable, right?

Butches aren't the misogynistic ones. People spouting stuff that you're spouting are the misogynistic ones, who want to limit what kinds of behaviours women get to engage in.

Allie

11/13/2012 04:54:47 am

Yes I do think that the comments above, whither it's from a butch female or a cis man are sexist and misogynistic! Also I would like to point out that there is a huge problem for butches when it comes to the gay community because many people seem to think that all butches want to be men and want to act like men and hate being women and the straight feminists who claim equality for all but spew hateful hurtful homophobic, and might I add transphobic comments towards us! I'm not butch I'm very much gender expression neutral, I don't ID as either, but I use to be butch even before I came out of the closet and let me tell you how much shit I went through, TOO MUCH! I was picked on not just by girls but by family members who told me I needed to be more feminine and not so manly, it wasn't right for a girl to behave that way. One time after I came out to my mom, she caught me looking at a pic of Miss Universe India and said to stop acting like a nasty man and be a woman and quite this whole gay stuff. There is a hate towards us but nobody seems to care, we are totally invisible and that drives me up the walls!

11/13/2012 04:55:29 am

I'm not in this kind of relationship so I really can't say that I relate.

Mobbeta

11/13/2012 05:02:02 am

I love the butch/femme dynamic, but certainly not when it corrodes into this type of misogynistic bullshit. It is not ok for anyone to force gender-specific behaviors (you must wear makeup all the time). I have issues with anyone who tries to put me into the femme box, even though I certainly identify as femme. On the other hand, femmes can't expect the butches to do all the "boy" stuff either. I take my own trash out! :)

Shae O

11/13/2012 05:02:33 am

I do think those things are misogynistic. If I read those things or was told that by someone I am with, I wouldn't be interested in them, nor would I continue to be with them. I don't think that's the definition of butchness. To me, and I'm in my late 20's, butchness is how a person dresses and less about how they act. How they act is not like a cisgendered straight male, however. They may present themselves tough, but they don't denigrate femmes or other women. True, some may not cry, but others do. We're all women and to speak as though one is superior than a femme is a seriously misogynistic practice. It is not my experience that most butches are like that. I've seen some, yes. However, I think some of the sexiest butches really know how to treat their women, and don't place demands on them as to what they should look like and how they should dress, etc.

Pink minx

11/13/2012 05:10:29 am

So what about those that love a so called 'traditional' (Hetro?!!!) butch/femme relationship? I'm a perfectly intelligent woman. I'm also very strongly femme identified. God forbid the butch exists that suggest I 'couldn't or 'shouldn't fix something...however, the fact remains that I love being with a butch that is practical, plays rugby, is a great carpenter etc etc I like that my car door gets opened first (rain and ringlets, a shockingly bad combo!) as long as it isn't done on the assumption that I can't, but is done out of a place of love, nurturing and courtesy then no butch will ever hear this femme complain!...

ladyfemme

11/13/2012 06:30:51 am

I think there is a difference between a mutually agreed upon dynamic- we all have those! I love to cook and clean and sew and garden while my stone butch partner repairs things, takes care of the car and wrenches on her bike... becuase that's what we want. Not what we demand of one another....

LadyJ link

11/21/2012 05:05:36 am

EXACTLY I am my Butchs' Femme and don't mind that a bit, I am not property and don't feel like it. I wear makeup and love looking good for her. The deal is of course she wants me to look good all the time! I don't want a scrub on my arm either! geez save the jammy's for home! which she loves seeing me in! AT HOME anyway good comment ladyfemme Thanks

Ruth

11/17/2012 12:43:47 am

Well said!

Victoria link

11/13/2012 05:17:26 am

I am in a butch-femme relationship, in an almost stereotypical, old school kind of way. I have long hair and wear skirts, she wears men's clothes and has short spiky hair.

She can't fix anything to save her life. She's far too impatient. She likes to open doors for me, not because I can't do it, but because she likes making me feel cared for. We both take out the garbage. We like to look nice for one another. She would never say I shouldn't do anything because of my gender, nor would I expect to her to because she's butch. Is she a bit stronger than me? Yes. Can she open things and reach things my short ass can't? Yes. But she has no problem letting me open doors. That said, she does have a pride thing around carrying heavy stuff. ;)
Is it misogynistic that she likes seeing me in sexy lingerie? I don't think so. No more so than if she liked butch women in boxers. We, as people, like what we like. As long as we're not boxing people in with those likes and keeping them from being fully fleshed people, I think we're allowed our preferences.
I dated someone, briefly, who probably said all three of those things you've put above. She was a misogynistic red neck, emulating the men she'd grown up with. Butch had far less to do with it than upbringing.

Whitney

11/13/2012 05:17:50 am

I've definitely seen the bullet points you listed written about, talked about, and acted out. I also think those kind of sentiments are sexist and misogynistic. Unfortunately, I do get the feeling that a lot of people (inside and outside the LGBT community) think being butch means taking on the 'male' role. As a young butch, I often find myself wanting to clarify to everyone that, that isn't what being butch means to me. It sucks that I feel like I have to, but I hate being clumped right in there with those assumptions when people don't know me yet. The reason I keep claiming butch as an identity is because I would like to prove people wrong and push back at their assumptions. Sure I like it when my partner (more of a sporty fem) is in a dress and I can hold the door open for her and make dinner on the grill. That's great. But I also love her in tear-aways and tanks tops (sportswear is hot!), when she opens the door for me, and when she rides her motorcycle. Yes, she is the rider and I'm the one on the back and I love it. I can't tell you how many times people have assumed I'm the one riding and I have had to correct them. I don't know a damn thing about motorcycles and I don't think that makes me any less butch. Perhaps that's why some of the misogyny comes out of some people. Some butches aren't comfortable enough in their own butchness that they feel the need to keep their partner "in check" so it doesn't threaten how butch they are... Not sure on that, but that would be one of my guesses. Anyway, all of this rambling is to say yes I've noticed these things and it pisses me off. A lot.

Cirrus

11/13/2012 06:08:47 am

When misogyny happens in women, it's also called self-loathing.

It makes me sad to see butches SO divorced from their physical sex that they are able to see femmes as existing in a wholly separate category from themselves, with totally separate rules.

Also, arbitrary limitations (you don't open doors, I never cry) and demands (YOU WILL WEAR MAKEUP ALWAYS RAWR) - Why? It just wastes time and energy over butt-hurt feelings someone is choosing to have over behavior that does not in any way change THEIR identities or lives.

Personally, as a butch who has coupled with both femmes and other butches, I just sort of like to start with a "Two Human Beings" relationship model, and adjust the specifics to everybody's preferences on an individual basis. =D

Rachi

11/13/2012 06:47:45 am

''I...like to start with a 'Two Human Beings' relationship model"...

What a genius idea!
We are who we are. We chose to present however we feel comfortable in our particular gender expression. It seems unnecessary/unhealthy to seek validation for that presentation through demanding an opposite or "weaker" presentation in those we partner with.
Also, cool article.
Cheers, All

preciocilla

11/13/2012 10:53:01 am

Excellent insight about self-loathing!

Zander Keig link

11/13/2012 06:32:20 am

"Do the kinds of comments I bulleted above strike you as sexist or misogynistic?" YES!!!!

pinkT

11/13/2012 06:33:01 am

I think it's unfortunate that people still insist putting themselves in theses boxes at all. Worse still that misogyny is so rampant in the queer population.
As for me, I wore a fabulous custom-tailored suit to the last wedding I attended. And I will wear a super hot bikini all next week on vacation.

Gender is for bending. But fuck misogyny and its perpetuators.

Preciocilla

11/13/2012 11:16:09 am

Dear PinkT,

Thank you for bringing diversity to the gay & lesbian world: I enjoy being surrounded by it!

However, I don't believe that swapping suits for bikinis, weekly, necessarily makes one less misogynistic or "gender bending" than an individual who chooses bikinis (or suits) daily.

Some of the most disempowered (conformist) lesbians I know are actually butch types who’re too scared to drop the makeup, hair & women’s clothes. They need acceptance, so they fall in line: How radical is that?

Again, thanks for your perspective!

~Preciocilla

Preciocilla

11/13/2012 11:18:17 am

MEANT TO SAY: MORE gender bending....thank you!

Brandy

11/15/2012 12:09:34 am

Your comment makes little sense. What does a butch who can't drop the feminine trappings have to do with a gender-bender who switches between them publicly at will?

Nothing at all, so far as I can see.

Preciocilla

11/17/2012 01:11:36 am

Brandy,

Some, obviously NOT all, "gender-benders who switch publicly at will" are merely dipping their toe in the water: they're too afraid to completely jump in. I said some, not all; does that make sense?

This has a lot to do with butch identity because some of these dykes are butches.

Maybe you don't/can't see it in your life, but it's certainly present in mine. I have friends who admit they switch back and forth--gender conforming than butch--because employers, colleagues, and neighbors are more comfortable with them, like this. Is this really hard to imagine?

Lastly, maybe internet etiquette, when replying to posts that trigger an emotional response, would be helpful?

Hugs,
Preciocilla

Abby

2/26/2014 02:42:52 pm

I must say that to me being Butch is just that 'BUTCH," To me that means, no caving into societies rules of, you need to drees and act this way in order to hold this type of position in any Company, I have always felt that if someone were to ask me or demand for me to dress a way that to me is not Butch, sorry it isn't going to happen!! EVER.
I get tired of people calling themselves Butches when they wear a dress and make-up to work or because they need to conform to fit in with either society or with family, I feel that if you are a real Butch, nothing will stop you from your masculinity. NOTHING!!
I think if you cave into changing your comfortability for a job, you are a sell out! Plain and Simple, SELLOUT!
When I felt like something like that would maybe or possibly be asked of me, then I either found a new job or I opened up my own Business, I must say the ones I have opened have been very successful as well, so my way of looking or dressing, actually made me more money in the long run, than caving into, a Girlfriends request to dress a certain way so her family didn't judge her, or to dress a certain way because of a supervisor etc.
I would love to use one singer for example here...KD LANG, I have seen that she now wants to be called K. DADDY, LOL Hell no!!She was wearing a dress to sing a song on a Canadian Award Show for Neil Young and it looked awful, she looked as if she was in drag! Why in G-D'S Name would she wear a dress like she did and then ask to be called K. DADDY, lol not in my book.
I may sound a little harsh, but for me a BUTCH is a BUTCH, which = MASCULINITY, not wearing make-up or dresses.
Same thing with all of the new so called Butchs that are so soft it is humorous, that want to be called Daddies, no!
Keep the Butch-Femme Scene the way it always has been Butch-Femme.
That means those Butches, were beaten so badly years ago in jail for wearing mens clothing and looking like REAL BUTCHES, so don't take that away from us real butches.
If you want to wear a dress, then I guess find a new label, if you don't like labels then don't call yourself anything, I really don't care, I am just tired of so many people, calling some women Butches that don't deserve the term,.
I have had enough gay bashing in my life to earn this name of Butch and so did the women before me, and so will the REAL BUTCHES after me, so leave the word BUTCH, to the REAL-BUTCHES, PLEASE
Thanks
Just my opinion!
Just like everyone else has one.
If you don't like it or agree, don't.
I feel that a Butch is a Butch full-time not when it is convenient for them to be either safe or have a job that they can maybe make 10 cents more an hour.
I have made more money with either my Businesses, I have had or in some of my career choices, than a lot of so-called women that will try to be a butch on weekends and be a femme during the week.
I know that for a fact, I have made 35,000.00 more than some Therapists, and about 45,000.00 more than some so called weekend Butches that are accountants.
So, if you are a Butch that always acts and dresses like a Butch, stay strong, don't ever let anyone bring you down.
Why? because you are a Butch, thats why, you are a strong woman!

ladyfemme

11/13/2012 06:36:13 am

I have thought often about the misogynist ways that butches can talk about femmes (one of my favorites being the "high maintenance accusation) but I'd like to point out that femmes do this about butches too. I have heard so many femmes say that butches just won't talk about their feelings, or complain about a butch who doesn't hold the door/shovel the snow/fix the car when that butch has never been asked to do so by the femme! I think it's worth being aware that both butches and femmes do weird policing maneuvers on each other's gender, and on the gender of the people within our own community. Let's not forget that important part of this, either... how often do we doubt the "real"ness of a butch or femme based on presentation or hobbies or what have you? I think this is bigger than plain old misogyny....

mia

11/13/2012 07:02:12 am

i'm glad you posted this because i sometimes have the argument with my partner that she acts like a man and remind her that i am a lesbian and want to be with a woman...it shouldn't matter whether one is butch or femme, because we're women we're made of the same stuff and have the same parts and suffer the same offenses from the outside, but in different ways.

Donna Buamoehl

12/24/2013 07:53:40 am

I am responding to a few posts so I don't have enough time to elaborate with my usual long posts. First of all butches shouldn't be called women and are only attracted to femmes. If you want your butch to be less manly then go with a lipstick or masculine androgynous female. Butches love women who are the bosses in feminine ways. I am one of the only real femmes left and find that many who refer to themselves as butches aren't that way. The definitions have been falsely changed by ki kis who are neither butch or femme. A dyke acts like a bad guy unlike a butch who is a female not woman who is masculine. I am surprised that your so called butch stays with you since you want to change the real her which she cannot do. I am sorry if I offend you but I feel very strongly about this subject and I am older but look much younger than my age. I don't follow straight roles because I am older or believe that I have to do so since only straight are valid but due to my naturally being a femme. Femmes are nice bitches, girly in looks and behavior, only attracted to butches as butches are only attracted to femmes- that is the idea of opposites liking opposites. femmes dress extremely feminine not like the plain dowdy non sexual females of today and may be feminist like myself without sacrificing her rigid natural role. Femmes may have gone with guys and some are bi unlike myself who is gay but butches never dated or have ever been attracted to males. One cannot be bisexual and be butch at the same time.

Ailsa

11/13/2012 07:19:51 am

Yes--sexist comments indeed. Playing with masculinity and femininity (even when that play is serious play indeed) does not need to be about recreating gendered inequality. We can use our gender expression(s) to open the world up, or to close it down--these kinds of comments close it down. You want to be femme for/with me? Sure--so long as it opens possibilities and pleasures for both of us. and we both take up our space as we move together You want to be butch for/with me? I'm game--same rules: make the world bigger, have that butch masculinity be a way to catch my breath, not suffocate me.

11/13/2012 08:02:27 am

In addition to being misogynist, those comments just aren't interesting. Do they think it is transgressive and edgy to stay that boring lame old stuff as a woman? Nope, still lame and boring.

In my life, one of the great blessing of being in a same-sex relationship has been the freedom to set my own rules with my gf to fit around us, rather than the other way around. Sure, straight people can do this too, but they have more convention to buck.

I think I read a comment like this on a blog on your roll - glad to see you bring this up.

Alisha

11/13/2012 09:32:20 am

My wife is a Butch woman and if she ever said those things to me she'd be sleeping on the couch for awhile. She likes to open doors, carry things for me and cook on the grill. She takes care of the car and enjoys fixing things. I love my dresses, heels and make-up. I love quilting, knitting and sewing. I also love construction and building and she is clueless about things like that and asks for my help with those things. She helps me with my sewing and quilting projects and some of my other "girly" things. She is Butch and I am Femme but we are not stuck in those roles and refuse to abide by the femmes do this, butches do that thing. We are two women and we make our own rules in our relationship and don't let anyone tell us what we should do based on their opinions of what a butch/femme relationship should be. I am and almost 40 year old woman and no one tells me how I should act or be especially a partner who is suppose to support me and build me up not put me in a little box.

teresa

11/13/2012 09:34:43 am

I know the blog post you are specifically referencing here: I unfollowed this blogger after that post, which I found very upsetting.

Butch Wonders link

11/14/2012 05:02:36 am

It's not a specific blog, actually--I saw things like this in four different places over the last two weeks!

Carter

11/13/2012 12:21:24 pm

It is inappropriate when anyone - regardless of gender identity - acts in a way that is disrespectful, controlling, or otherwise abusive to another human being. It doesn't matter who you are - it is wrong.

And I don't think it is appropriate to equate cis-male with misogyny. Yes, some are still back in the dark ages, but many men today actually do treat women well. Many have even fought alongside women in advancing respect and understanding of women's needs.

We need to stop judging and disrespecting people based on stereotypes and culturally created boxes.

Lex link

11/14/2012 11:37:35 am

Completely agree here- what a great comment!

11/15/2012 04:26:17 am

Abso-freakin'-lutely!

11/13/2012 12:23:36 pm

I hate this kind of thing, and I think it's part of why I (as someone who looks butch) stay far, far away from anything butch/femme. I realize that not everyone who does butch/femme thinks that way, but I think it helps breed certain attitudes that, well, suck.

And I think it goes both ways--I find things like this blog particularly horrifying: http://dearbutchlovefemme.wordpress.com/2012/05/23/womens-cut/

11/14/2012 07:53:19 am

@ m

Interesting link. Yes, I felt an instinctive recoil upon reading.

Glancing over some of her past posts, it seems that she better than perhaps many dykes can appreciate the sting of being forced into an unwanted box. The oppressed often become the oppressor, etc.

http://dearbutchlovefemme.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/your-comment/

http://dearbutchlovefemme.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/dirty-femme/

Vis-a-vis my post below, a bit of internalized misogyny:

http://dearbutchlovefemme.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/closeted-romantic/

Butch Wonders had a post a while back that tried to get at the thought process/motivations of LGBT folks who gender-police, queer-police, etc. What's going on inside them, how does the world respond to (and police) them and what do they think of themselves as a result? I think it's always useful to spend time thinking about such things.

Jan link

11/13/2012 12:48:41 pm

Where is the like button? I agree with you all.
Me Butch not Caveman!

Chris

11/13/2012 07:32:10 pm

I think it's pretty common for femmes and butches to make comments about each other and assumptions about dynamics and such. Yeah some of those comments can be seen as sexist or misogynistic. That being said, I don't think there's anything wrong with stating preference or what makes someone comfortable and uncomfortable. I am butch, gq, and I am attracted to femmes, particularly high femmes. I like holding doors and such and I will say I don't want someone holding a door open for me simply because it makes me uncomfortable. I'm not going to censor myself either just because someone thinks I'm coming from a different place.

11/14/2012 07:22:23 am

I think there's a difference between making general statements versus a dynamic that an actual, established couple have worked out for themselves with respect, consent, and discussion.

Playing out a 1950s housewife fetish together because you both groove on it? Cool. Acting like it is the 1950s outside of that? Not cool. (That's for the first two things. I think statements like "Femmes are so emotional. I'm not. It's a butch thing. Don't expect me to know what you're thinking, and quit crying all the time." are never cool.)

Donna Baumoehl

12/24/2013 07:26:36 am

I take issue with anyone who criticizes the butch femme dynamic and I only adhere to straight roles because this is the way that I naturally think, feel and behave. There is no such thing as someone who is too butch and I like contrasts if they are real not for the sake of a role that is expected. Real butches aren't called women or wives or else they wouldn't be butch. There are boxed differences for both which is the general idea. Femmes dress ultra femme, act ultra femme, are only attracted to hard core butches; there is no such thing as a soft butch. We act like girly girls yet can be independent and do what is known as masculine activities like fixing things. I prefer to have my butch drive, hold doors for me, take over and such. It's not what you do but how you act and feel. Either you are butch or you aren't and there is no such thing as a soft butch which would best be described as androgynous. Most everyone disagrees with me and those who don't are taken. I like living alone but it's fine to have one of more people to date if I am not in love which means being exclusive. REAL butches never allow anyone even femmes to change them which they cannot do anyway as when false femmes demand that they behave in a less masculine fashion. It doesn't just involve sex since butches don't act feminine once they get out of bed. You have to be mentally attracted first in my opinion. Butches only like real femmes like myself, wear men's clothing, never went with men or had kids and are totally masculine without being guys. They love women and the straight pattern. I look much younger than I am so most butches wouldn't mind meeting me but I do like mature butches over 50. Donna

bookish butch link

11/13/2012 11:54:17 pm

Sexism and mysogyny are not the exclusive domain of males, unfortunately. Butch-Femme is very complex, but. aren't all human relationships? I find these sort of comments by some 'butch' writers disturbing, to me it is the opposite of butch. Butch to me is about courtesy, respect, and, well...adoration.

Cherry

11/14/2012 04:36:13 am

It's not subversive or "queering" oppression just because we both have vaginas.

11/14/2012 05:38:07 am

I was once a "masculine-feminine"-dynamic worshiper, and I've learned a few things from delving deep into my fatal fascination with the masculine-feminine dynamic enshrined in cultures around the world.

What I have learned is that some people who worship---not "prefer" or "like," but *worship*--- the masculine-feminine dynamic (no matter which biological sexes are involved) to the point that it becomes unhealthy--i.e. misogynistic; severely limiting---do so out of an underlying, subconscious insecurity and dissatisfaction with who or what they themselves are.

They are masculine-gendered but deep down, for whatever reasons of cultural pressures or low self-esteem, they feel inadequate as a man or as a butch; their response is to glorify the masc-fem framework and grind their heel down onto less traditional relationship dynamics.

They are feminine-identified but deep down, possibly due to the misogyny of the world around them or to their own self-esteem issues, they feel high-femininity is less noble, less inherently admirable than masculinity; their response is to glorify the masc-fem framework and grind their heel down on less traditional relationship dynamics.

This can be the case even in people who are very much "Stone-butch and proud" or "I am all that is feminine, hear me roar," respectively. In fact, I believe it is especially common in such people.

Gender-neutrality and promotion of androgyny as a corrective are not the necessary antidote to such extremes. There is room for cultural masculinity to be (healthily) valued for its noteworthy attributes and for cultural femininity to likewise be (healthily) valued for its special characteristics.

Yes, there is even room for people's preferences for a masculine-feminine dynamic (both in same-sex and other-sex relationships).

But the worshiping of gender roles, the denigration or dismissal of people and relationships who don't fit that mold...that is a telltale sign that something within the worshiper needs attending to, that there is some sort of internal struggle going on, or lying dormant.

My theory does not apply to ALL those who revere the masculine-feminine dynamic and gender roles to the exclusion of alternatives. But I believe it applies to quite a few people out there.

Katie Laszlo

11/14/2012 08:20:09 am

Totally both! I identify as butch, but just because I like to chop a tree down, or build a shed I also know how to use the needle to crochet and knit and do dishes, and clean house and cook (when I don't burn the house down in the process ) . I am attracted to women, w or wout make up, in a nice dress or a pajama/joga pants. As long as they love me and respect me and they allow me to do the same to them, it is amazing! Can't stand when young little butches pretend to be something they are not, pose an attitude to show off. Ugh just be who you are! Love reading you, great post.

Heather link

11/14/2012 09:00:50 am

I do not immediately think any butch thinks those things! That's almost sexist of us to assume that this is the relationship they prefer.

Shay

11/14/2012 09:22:20 am

I absolutely agree that those are misogynistic comments.

I think it's a bit of a generational thing too. I have older butch friends that act out those stereotypes, but I don't think I've ever heard them say such douchey things. I most definitely get evil looks when I open doors or carry things for them though.

I'm 26, butch, and I love and adore butch women. Some my age play into those stereotypes, and I have nothing to do with them. For the ones that don't blink over the fact that I like to knit AND am a pretty damn good BBQer, well then we can talk ;)

Donna Baumoehl

12/24/2013 07:31:20 am

Butches don't go with butches. Also butches love women. I don't have time to elaborate especially since I am commenting to many posts. I love the dynamic of opposites attract and butches are never called women. The always wear men's clothing. They never went with guys. They are totally masculine and emulate the good guy pattern without being a guy physically and in some cases mentally. The negative pattern of butch is dyke or bull dyke who follows the male role in unpleasant ways. According to me there are very few butches and femmes left and I am a real femme.

abby

4/12/2014 05:13:09 pm

@ Donna Baumoehl, Yes, I agree about the Butch/Femme Dynamic of yesteryear and today.
I find it sort of sad that so many Butches and some I have found to really being Femmes in a lot of ways, seem to think transitioning seems to be the new "In Thing" to do I feel sorry for this generation as there are far too many transitioning and now committing suicide because of their decision to do so. There are a lot of Studies and reports showing that the number of Trans suicides are on the rise, and I find it sad that the community is trying to cover it up by saying, they only did it because they were not being accepted, no...I have read some stories, and it has to do with them MTF or FTM that are very unhappy they did it, because they felt pressured to do so

Katerina link

11/14/2012 10:28:51 am

I totally agree....they are sexist and not the kind of people I want to be around. Sexist bull is the same no matter who's ignorant mouth it comes out of. I also agree a preference is fine....but respect for women is essential.

WWG

11/14/2012 12:24:01 pm

As everyone else has said, it's definitely sexist. If the femme had said that first sentence, it would be just a sign of her dress preference. To have a butch say it though, that's not cool.

I'm a femme who likes butches (and androgynous women). Frankly, I do find the dynamic hot, but my love of butches goes beyond any dynamic thing. I crushed on butch women as a kid, wayyyy before I understood about roles. However I came out again recently about three years ago (my whole story is on CCL if you care to understand it), so I'm still figuring out a lot.

A butch woman I recently dated said like when she mentioned a football game and I said I wanted to watch one with her (I'm not into football btw) said things like "I can't watch that with a chick." Um...? She also accused me of being "such a straight girl" and saying things like "I'm not a dude." Mind you, this was after she acted like all the WORST aspects of men (and made me think of all the people - men and women - who would NEVER treat me that way).

I'll be the first to say that she's a very unhealthy woman so I definitely don't want to swipe all butches with her brush. But I was caught short by that comment and others she came up with. I'd love to say she's the only one I dated who has said things that separate me as a "chick" from her as a butch, but nope, someone else I dated made comments like that.

I fully understand that there almost needs to be this separation, because butches exist on a somewhat different plane than I do, as they have a level of masculinity and masculine energy that I don't. As my butch best friend says, butch IS her gender, and I respect that tremendously, but I do find it disappointing somewhat when the separation becomes a negative connotation. Women have enough obstacles as it is; why add more?

katie laszlo

11/15/2012 01:56:40 am

11/15/2012 05:56:53 am

Sexist, definitely. Misogynistic? At it's root, yes, beyond a doubt, but I usually save that word for men like the Republicans who want to shut down Planned Parenthood.

To me it looks like some women are helping themselves to the archaic cultural manifestations of male privilege. Why they feel that they are "entitled" to behave that way toward the women they ostensibly love is disturbing.

This is a control issue, above all else. One person trying to control the life of another for the gratification that that sense of control provides. "I just want you to look nice" is really "wear what I tell you to wear." "I do the BBQing around here." is really "Stay within the parameters I set for you."

It's not exclusive to "romantic" relationships, middle management positions in corporations and government bureaucracies are filled with people like this, it's why they seek out those positions. Such positions also provide them with "cover" from criticism. "I'm just doing my job."

The scariest part of this behavior in a personal relationship is that the person seeking control will often use this "cultural permission" to justify battering.
"You just pushed me too goddamned far! You're always pushing my goddamned buttons like that. I lost my head for minute, okay? I'm sorry, baby, really. I swear I'll never do it again, I promise."

I'm not saying that all people who exhibit this behavior are batterers, that's not the case at all, only that batterers are highly likely to use this sort of self-justification as cover for what they know is unacceptable behavior.

In her (or his) brain they are totally "within their rights" until they're "pushed too far" because, once upon a time, men were within their rights to beat a wife/lover/daughter who "refused to obey."

Shay

11/15/2012 07:52:52 am

Not only are these comments pretty sexist, they also make me feel pretty alienated as a transmasculine person who doesn't fix things, is emotional, and generally has a lot of traits that are considered to be "feminine". My partner is generally more femme than me, and she's an engineer. If I have a computer problem or something needs fixed around the house, she's the one who does that, because I'm rubbish at it.

That kind of essentialist attitude has made me feel unwelcome in more than one queer community.

☯ Kaya

11/16/2012 07:06:58 am

" I want my femme to look good all the time. I expect her to dress up, put on makeup, etc., whenever we go out."

Is most definitely selfsexist, and possesive.

"Don't open the door for me. I'm the one who opens the doors, BBQs, and fixes things, thank you very much."

I don't think this is sexist. A, because I've heard plenty of feminists say it. And B, I would say it, not out of ingratitude, but because I feel like to be really equal if (a man OR a woman) held the door for me as a woman but wouldn't for the NEXT person because (they are bigger than me/ a man, or whatever reason) I feel the preferential treatment is more sexist because it says as a woman I'm weak and I need to have the door held for me because I'm "dainty" or insert other stereotype here.

"Femmes are so emotional. I'm not. It's a butch thing. Don't expect me to know what you're thinking, and quit crying all the time."

This really depends on wether you are generalizing it or being personally subjective. I don't think it's a butch or femme thing. But if I say "I notice women in general are usually more sensitive than me." it's what I've noticed it's not sexist or stereotyping really just what I've experienced. The example given may have just been said in a sexist way but the person saying it is not actually a sexist, or the person saying it could really be a sexist. Eitherway it's not the stereotyping that stands out on this one it's the neglect of the potential partners feelings. "quit crying all the time." That's just not cool.

MainelyButch link

11/21/2012 03:30:27 am

I guess I see it as depending upon the way it's said and the context of the specific situation as to whether it's intended or perceived to be sexist or misogynistic; words taken out of context can be explained away in any fashion suited to the person doing the explaining. As I identify as Butch I know I enjoy when my date looks great, making me look great...don't we ALL? Whether you identify with the B-F dynamic or not, I think a person expects their date to do a little sprucing up for them. I don't want to date someone who answers the door in sweats and sneakers and I am in my jacket and tie. I like those who identify as Femme and who like that whole primping thing that seems to go hand in hand with the identity most of the time .... i.e. MOST of the time. I also like waking up next to her without her makeup and all the fluff.
Doors, gas, etc....that's up to the couple individually I believe. I enjoy using great manners and offering to do those things. But if she's adamant about doing it herself, let her do it.
I would never tell someone that Femmes are emotional all the time and cry alot...so that one I don't know about. I do know that I am often accused of not "reading between the lines" and knowing what the Femme is trying to "say". Of course I suffer from BEDD...Butch Emotional Deficit Disorder...I don't understand emotions and don't feel them the way many do...maybe it's just me, maybe it's partially my being Butch...who knows. Communication is key, clear, concise and without "lines"... Rock on.

Donna Baumoehl

12/24/2013 07:41:53 am

I wish that I had enough time to make my usual long post but I naturally follow heterosexual roles only. Butches cannot like other butches and there is no such thing as a soft butch. Butches don't want to be called women and they are totally masculine not just concerning intimacy. Butches never went with guys and are only attracted to femmes. They wear men's clothing since they have to express themselves the way that they feel and think. Butches aren't wives like femmes but husbands or boyfriends. it is the male role in the female.The idea is to stay in a defined box since we know exactly what we want. According to me I am one of the only real femmes left and don't regard those who claim to be butch as genuine butches. There is no room for switching ideas and behaviors and we please each other in different ways not just sexually. I am more of a stone femme who appreciates a stone butch who can be a bit less than that, but only a bit. Butches love women unlike dykes who follow negative male roles.

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