Guest Post #5: Five Mistakes Butches Make in Butch-Femme Relationships

6/22/2012

This guest post is written by BW reader Sarah Ultis, a dynamite thirtysomething femme who also blogs at the Butch-Femme Project. Ultis lives in Phoenix, Arizona and happens to be an "outlaw knitter" who does cool stuff like yarn bombing.

Relationships are difficult. They take work, dedication, and a commitment to talk through the hard stuff without giving up, so everyone makes mistakes. However, when it comes to butch-femme relationships, there are a few things butches seem to excel at in the screw-up department.

Acting too much like a man. As a femme, I love, love , love the masculinity of butch women. I love girls who look like boys, enjoy cars and football, and would rather talk trash with their buddies than discuss the latest chick-lit. But I’m a lesbian for a reason. If I wanted to be with a man, I’d be straight, so if my girlfriend becomes emotionally distant, unwilling to talk about feelings, or would rather spend more time swilling beer with the guys than with me, we are going to have issues. (That doesn’t mean that if, during the course of the relationship, you realize that you should be a man and want to transition that I, as a lesbian, am going to leave you--but see #5.)
Acting too much like a woman. I realize this sounds like a contradiction, but it’s not. I want a butch who is emotionally aware, expressive, and can discuss feelings, but I don’t want a butch who’s girlier than me. There’s only room for one princess in a butch-femme relationship and that princess must be me in all my femmie glory. When we dance, you need to lead. You are the cockroach killer, oil changer, furniture mover, flower buyer. Don’t get me wrong--I am perfectly capable of doing those things, but I don’t want to do those things. If you spend more time crying than I do, or steal my lipstick when we go out, our relationship will become more sister than sizzle, and we are going to have issues.
Not working enough. This is one of my big peeves. I know that plenty of you work your tails off and keep the same job for 15 years, but the butch women I seem to run across have trouble staying employed. Even more frustrating is that they'll have a job when we get together, but as soon as we’re committed (and usually living together) they mysteriously lose it and I’m left carrying the load for both of us for long periods of time. This is not okay. See princess reference above. I have no problem being an equal partner and sharing the financial burden. I don’t expect to stay home eating bonbons while you slave away, but I do not want to be the long-term sole bread winner for our household. Losing jobs happens, especially in this economy. But if you lose more than one job for the same reason or quit more than one job (especially without talking to me about it first) we are going to have issues. (This only applies to butches who are capable of working but don’t. If you are disabled, or become so, that is an entirely different matter. See #5.)
Working too much. Yes, I’m well aware that this, too, seems like a contradiction. (Femmes are contradictory by nature. It’s just the way we work.) When I talk about working "too much," I don’t mean a 40-hour week. I'm talking about the opposite end of the unemployed butch spectrum: the workaholic butch. These are butches who constantly cancel plans or show up late because of work. It doesn’t matter what the plan is, how long we’ve had it, or how important it is. If work calls, she’s gone. This is also not okay. I need to know that I am important enough to set aside time that is just for me and connecting as a couple. (Again, see princess reference above.) Work is important, and sometimes it may be necessary to spend extra time there. We can talk about that, but if time and again work is more important than “us,” we are going to have issues.
Failing to be honest. The biggest cause of failed butch-femme relationships in my experience has been that one or the other (or both) has said they want things they don’t, or that they don’t want things they do, or failed to communicate their true expectations. Sometimes this happens because we don’t know what we want, or we want to want something but aren’t ready for it. Like we want to have a relationship but aren't totally over an ex. The important thing is to analyze our feelings and be open. If you miss the ex and wish she’d come back but know she won’t, you are not really single. Your heart can’t fully be given to someone else. Be honest with yourself and the person you’re trying to date. If you want kids and won’t be satisfied without them (or wouldn’t be caught dead near a child) say so. Don’t wiffle waffle about what you want or need just because it might cost you the relationship. It isn’t fair to leave the other person with the impossible task of trying to satisfy needs you aren’t being honest about just because you don’t want to be alone. In the end, they'll feel unworthy and you'll feel guilty and you will come to resent each other.

The first key to this list is to be honest with ourselves about what we want and who we are. The second is to talk to each other and really listen in return.

We cannot find long-lasting, satisfying relationships without being our true selves at all times. If the person you’re with would leave you for being who you truly are, she’s not the right one for you, nor are you the right one for her. So if you’re a butch who’s scared of spiders and collects pink teddy bears, be that to the fullest, but be honest about it so that the woman who loves you can love all of you, not just who you appear to be in your badass leathers on the Harley.

Thanks again to Sarah Ultis of the Butch-Femme Project for this post. Any butches out there want to write something similar about butch-femme relationships from a butch's perspective? If so, email me at butchwonders@yahoo.com. --BW

103 Comments

rhianimal

6/22/2012 08:56:44 am

Seriously? It seems to me that your biggest problem is acting too much like spoiled ass str8 womyn. You sound like f'ng Goldilocks. Don't act too butch, don't act to femme, act just right to make me happy. This attitude makes me ill. No wonder so many butches prefer to be alone as they get older. It's better than emotionally enslaving themselves to spoiled femme girls that need to remake their partner into their ideal of perfection.

femme_areola

6/22/2012 09:43:22 am

Yikes, rhianimal,
Calm down! Just from your overly-aggressive comment, I have a feeling there are other reasons that "many butches [read: you] prefer to be along as they get older".

6/22/2012 09:44:03 am

*alone

Murphy

11/27/2012 05:48:27 am

Honestly the young lady who posted her true feelings on and or about the way she expects her "butch/relationship" to be, I completely and unequivocally agree with every word she wrote!!!

1/17/2013 11:46:18 pm

This post sounds more like a job advertisement than problems between this and that. Laborer, Must pay attention to detail, show up on time, be trustworthy, must be able to lift up to 75lbs, haha! No, this is not an add for foreman, if your looking to be a foreman, apply elsewhere. LoL

pan

6/22/2012 09:54:43 am

while i don't necessarily agree w/ the "spoiled ass str8 womyn" comment (honestly i know a lot of straight chicks who are waaaay less demanding of their partners than this femme's list) i'm also glad i'm not the only one who kinda recoiled @ the goldilocks/princessy 'tude... then again, this just reinforces the reality that i'm a (self ID'ed) faggy butch & i've never found the idea of dating a femme appealing :P the only part of this that made sense to me was #5, & really EVERYONE should be honest in their relationships, whatever their identity. the ultimatum laden "do _____ to my (nebulous) specifications or we're going to have issues" approach makes my skin crawl - give me another low maintenance rough'n'tumble butch-of-center queer any day!

alex

6/22/2012 12:30:29 pm

Double Yikes, Rhianimal. I think you have some issues with femmes. OK to the guest poster - Thanks for writing this and I'm seriously worried about you reading Rhianimals comments. Please don't!

Sarah

6/23/2012 04:40:42 am

Bah. I think her comments say more about her than they do about me. But thank you to the folks you got the joke and have enjoyed the post. =)

6/23/2012 07:56:25 am

@rhianimal,

Your post brings up some important points that I think are necessary to any discussion of b/f dynamics, even if people dance around them or pretend they're not there. I thank Sarah for her honest post, and BW for publishing it. But I can't deny that parts of it made me feel a little uncomfortable. I'm speaking as a person who, while not stereotypically high femme, is definitely feminine-energied and socialized into very feminine modes of speaking, talking, walking, being.

I continue to struggle with why I find masculine energy* so 100% necessary in order to feel emotionally connected to a potential partner (as opposed to sexually interested; I am potentially sexually attracted to the whole female sex). And the unpalatable answers that come back to me are that I strongly admire masculine energy (in whatever biological sex or form it comes), that I even exalt it, and that deep down, I wish *I* had more of the skills, attributes, and modes of being that are socialized into men and boys and that butches or other masculine-energied women display.

And then I take it a step further, and I realize there are certain "feminine"-identified ways of being that I almost instinctively (due to socialization) display in a relationship that I slightly hold in contempt in myself. Those are things like, yes, wanting my partner to *want* to get rid of the spiders or take on the physical burdens usually associated with masculinity. Or my feeling that the other party should instinctively want to shield me from harm *in the way a masculine person is trained to want to shield women* (as opposed to the maternal, mother-lion way I have been trained to want to shield my loved ones from harm).

Then, after having gotten to the point of realizing that I slightly resent these feminine-socialized urges in me and that I'm frustrated with myself for not having more of the traits I admire in masculine-energied folks, I come up against the most unpalatable realization of all: that I hold femininity in contempt because in this world in which we live, we are taught that femininity is contemptible.

Everything honorable, everything brave, everything confident and proactive is masculine. That's what Walt Disney, Madison Avenue, and a hundred folktales and fairy tales (both Western and non-Western) instilled in me since birth. Meanwhile, everything circumspect, averse to physical jeopardy, and passive was feminine. No wonder I watched the old swashbucklers and the 80s action flicks as a kid and identified more with the hero than with the heroine: in a culture that exalts the heroic qualities of masculinity, who wouldn't want to be the hero---who wouldn't subconsciously scorn the passivity of the feminine-energied damsel?

Once or twice, I've wondered in passing why butch women who date femmes tolerate pronounced femininity in their partners; I wonder if they don't secretly hold femmes in contempt for that femininity. Can they resent what they profess to be attracted to (femininity)? And the answer to that is that, of course, in a culture like ours, masculinity is more than capable of harboring a deep resentment towards that which it craves. Legions of hetero men have a deep resentment towards the women they lust after; het men can crave femininity in one breath yet denounce it as weak, spoiled, and self-entitled in another. And they resent the fact of their own weak flesh, for falling prey to something--femininity--that is so contemptible. Surely the same dynamic might apply to some masculine women who are physically and/or emotionally attracted to feminine ones?

So, yes, I did feel a prick of discomfort as I read this post. But when I stop to reflect on it, I realize that the discomfort comes from within me; it is my own internalization of the contempt directed towards femininity in our society. I recognize myself in what Sarah writes, and I don't like it. Deep down, I wish so many of my urges and needs weren't feminine-socialized ones; I wish I didn't "need" a masculine-energied partner in order to feel emotionally content in a relationship.

Deep down, too, I wish I valued the feminine-socialized things in me that society tells me are weak and contemptible.

Thanks for the discussion.

*Masculine energy in a woman does not have to come in butch form.

Lydia

9/17/2013 09:25:13 am

Well fucking written! These thoughts I totally understand. Ty.

10/17/2013 12:01:35 am

@Lydia ...Not sure if that was directed to me but if so, thanks. Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only person who thinks about things in this way. So many people are so invested in their identities ("I was born feminine/masculine, this or that, end of story" "I just like butches/blondes/femmes/Asians and that's that, no reason why") that they strongly resist the invitation to step outside of themselves for a while and ask questions like "Why?How does our world work and how am I, my identity, my desires, a part of it?" Those of us who do ask such questions aloud are often shut down. your commiseration is welcome.

Chrissy

12/1/2013 08:54:43 am

I agree with just about everything you said EK.

I tend to be attracted to more masculine (not necessarily Butch) women and I am a femme. For me, it's not about character traits but the way they look. I like the way masculine women are desired. Sometimes I wish I had it in me to be more masculine so I can feel desired.

It may sound kind of weird, but I tend to not like the way feminine women are physically desired.

amy

6/13/2014 04:56:06 am

It's nice when someone can lay bare the essence of the topic which was not well expressed by the offensive author of the article.

gerene808

9/3/2014 11:30:50 pm

Thank you...I now have a better understanding of what I am looking for, I've been on this emotional roller coaster trying to figure out why me and my bou argue all the time. I can bearly tolerate her snide comments. I've had relationships with bous as a teen, but went straight because my heart was broken. Now I turned femme because a man broke my heart and of course the sex was great. But now its crazy and I can't shake this feeling of trying to please her...so that is a well written statement masculine energy in a woman dosent have to come in butch form...well said.

1/18/2013 12:44:18 am

If you can read between the lines, this is an excellent post. Not just because of the post itself but the comments it generated. It says a lot about people in general. And if it were a job advertisement, it also says, looking for laborer, not foreman - that role is already taken. LoL This is a Great post!

Sandra Bunnell link

8/25/2015 04:07:45 am

I am glad that not everyone was offended. I was trying to be direct, honest and to the point of what I am interested in finding as a partner.

Renaye

5/4/2013 06:12:48 pm

Rhianimals comments have a note of bitterness, maybe even some contempt (as evidenced by her swearing) but the bitterness I can relate to. I'm fond of femmes. I like when they're smart, witty and well-read and I like when they're gracious and essentially gentle. But just as butches, AG's and studs need to know when they've come upon a narcissist and should cut their losses, femmes have a responsibilty to communicate their desires, maybe if not always clearly and explicitly, then at least consistently, and I have not always found that to be the case. Nevertheless, the real issue seems to be that being truthful with one'self at least raises the likelihood of being truthful to others, if not in words, then at least in actions.

SuperDuperChiQ

7/16/2013 03:17:11 am

I agree with you completely, Rhianimal!! There is nothing in this post that speaks of inherently trying to work at a relationship and show the dynamics of butch-femme relationships, just a bunch of whiney-spoiled-femme malarkey. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this.

Anon

1/11/2014 11:50:56 am

I agree with you.

Casey

8/9/2015 03:19:01 am

Would have to agree for I am one butch stud whatever the hell each generation comes up for a masculine lesbian that chooses to be alone than to be with the boss godess femmes were attracted to that think there the queen that we should be worthy of.they all need to stop acting like men themselves all dominating butches and bullying them telling them how to act like a power trip man does to his beat down wife.single for over a year an loving the life of not being beat down by a fem that think the world revolves around her. Ijs.lmao

tee

4/9/2018 01:34:36 pm

amen

alexisshaw1

1/24/2016 10:29:11 pm

omg exactly

6/28/2016 06:53:50 pm

I totally agree with butch wonders. Its why I' been single for 2 years

Dapperlee

5/1/2017 06:29:52 am

Thank you. My girl tries to change me. I'm sorry she can't lol.

Bats

10/2/2017 09:07:05 am

This article is insane!

I am a tiny, blonde, high heel wearing, red lipstick flaunting femme who loves to come home to my flannel wearing butch cooking something amazing. I love sending her flowers on valentines day, I love surprising her with gifts, I love helping her sand spackle and paint our living room. I love holding her when she cries, and I love listening to her rip apart some insensitive asshole with her biting Kentucky wit. I love that I can depend on her to be my rock when I fall apart, or that she always finds a few extra dollars somewhere when we seem to have no money.

I have experienced dating truly misogynistic butches. And I see some femmes treating their butch lovers like the writer of this article details. We are human women, all of us. Lets treat each other like dimensional human beings, not a textbook concept of a lesbian butch/femme relationship.

stacey tupa

6/22/2012 09:03:42 am

I agree to some of what you said...esp. the workaholic..my butch is a workaholic..I can handle it sometimes...and when it gets to be a lil much we talk...I remind her we need US time...and she makes sure we both get that...now for the other parts..I love my butch for who she is...she is sometimes called sir. (lol) I giggle about it and just go on.One of the main things I love about my butch is she is comfortable in who she is as I am in myself...

Jodie

6/22/2012 09:09:08 am

Lol seriously this femme is on the money! I'm butch and I can relate to everything she has said. I've watched many relationships fail due to one or a few of the five points listed not being adhered to. Thanks for the great blog, it gave me a good laugh :-)

Tia

3/20/2013 10:35:18 am

I have to say, although I am not quite as demanding a femme as the author of this post, I loved it. I was laughing my ass off at the comment:
''There’s only room for one princess in a butch-femme relationship and that princess must be me in all my femmie glory. When we dance, you need to lead. You are the cockroach killer, oil changer, furniture mover, flower buyer. Don’t get me wrong--I am perfectly capable of doing those things, but I don’t want to do those things.''

I LOVE it when a butch WANTS to do those things for me. In return, I'll spoil her rotten in other ways, there has to be equal give and take in a relationship.

But I also liked this article because I am still hurting because of my ex, (the first butch I ever dated) and there are a lot of questions I have about her behavior during the time we were dating that will probably never be answered, and it seems like I'm not the only femme to have dealt with a lot of them. I'm glad someone wrote about them, because I was starting to wonder if our problems were me somehow, even though she always denied that I had done anything wrong. Things like not being honest, going back and forth between things she wants/doesn't want way too quickly for me to keep up, making it impossible for me to keep her happy, and being totally emotionally distant and super masculine, and putting work before us, always, and then being surprised that I was upset (I missed her like hell damnit). At least there are others dealing with the same shit. That's a little comforting in a weird way.

Patricia

5/3/2016 01:59:15 am

I am enjoying the discussion that the original post is generating. It's all food for thought. I have been described as "sporty" I guess middle of the road. I have close-cropped hair, wear makeup every day, and I would say my spirit or mode of interaction is quite female. I can cook, love taking care of cleaning and decorating around the house, but I can't fix anything! I've generally been in relationships with other middle-spectrum women. Not too into labels, I am using them for purposes of this discussion. I was always afraid of and nervous around feminine lesbians. It recently occurred to me that this is because I am very, very attracted to them! I recently dated a very feminine lesbian, pretty much my first "femme" I was thrilled to pieces and she seemed to be as well. She was all over me, and then, after a lovely date (all of our dates lasted 5-6 hours and she seemed as reluctant as I was to part at the end of them) she wrote and stated she only wanted friendship. I am certain that the 180 she pulled had nothing to do with her very feminine presentation, but now.... I'm afraid of the femmes again! I'm not giving up though! I guess I am not very sure at all if there is a recipe or formula for how this is all supposed to work, but I definitely appreciate this conversation. Thank you to all who have posted.

Cirrus link

6/22/2012 09:29:43 am

Seems to me this post isn't saying much about BUTCH issues... Over/Underemployment and dishonesty can be a problem on either side; and as far as being "too masculine" or "too feminine," isn't that kind of a mileage-may-vary thing?

I certainly HOPE every femme I meet doesn't except me to be Changer of Oil. I prefer to pay local automotive wisemen to do that sort of thing.

bee listy link

6/23/2012 03:28:07 am

I pay someone to change my oil, but i recently did my own brakes!

butchwonders link

6/26/2012 01:52:48 am

@beelisty: Meow!!

Tnav

10/12/2014 12:40:24 pm

I Identify as a butch/trans man so I have A LOT experience with femmes. They're what get my pulse quickening and protectiveness going. I completely agree on the oil change thing. I can't work on cars or anything that really requires tools. Honestly, I hate football and most sports. Now give me a good book, scientific journal, or documentary and I will excel. From my past relationships this is how the femmes acted and I'm guilty of more than a few bullet points. The article gave me a good chuckle.

Carmen Vazquez

6/22/2012 09:31:29 am

Hey Sarah.

I am an old Butch who fits none of your five points. I do, however, know of one other Butch foil in relationships: not knowing how to be vulnerable and running away when it happens. Could be to another woman, could be to alcohol. But ultimately, it's about fearing what happens if we are vulnerable sexually and to our fears of loss. Doesn't mean we don't eventually learn the lessons. Just that it is our greatest weakness and takes a lot of learning to get over. Thanks for the post.

6/22/2012 11:26:27 am

Hey Carmen, I completely agree. I think that's what happens for a lot of women who identify as butch. It happens for femmes too, we just express it differently I think. It's really scary to put ourselves out there because other people have the right to have their own feelings about our feelings, just as some people here have expressed outrage at my 'tude because of how they've chosen to interpret it, rather than the tongue-in-cheek humor it really is meant to be. I think as we learn more about ourselves and become more comfortable and confident with who we are, that fear of being vulnerable lessens, though never fully goes away. I guess we just keep trying right? Thanks so much for your comments.

A S

6/24/2012 06:36:09 am

Hey Sarah, if people aren't quite reading your humor the way you intended, maybe you want to try expressing it in a different way? Your intent is obviously getting lost on a lot of people, so you may want to clarify. As a fellow writer, I know the burden lies with me; if my audience misunderstands, it is because I haven't explained myself completely.

Nikki

6/22/2012 09:32:31 am

I loved this article!
This is the type of girl I seek.
Just remember everyone is looking for something else.
Not all femmes are going to want exactly this...
And not all butches are gonna be able to keep up with this! (or want too)

JAy

1/18/2013 02:09:05 am

Yeah, this is an excellent post!

sue

6/22/2012 09:37:18 am

I am a femme, I agree that balance is the key to pretty much all relationships. My butch spouse and I have had discussions about the work thing, she tends to want to put the job ahead of me. We established the boundries of our femme/butch behavior way at the beginning of the relationship, with honesty and just being who we are, things work out very well. 5 yrs strong...I always say, look for what you want in a person, don't try to make a person into something you want....

Deetoo

6/22/2012 10:16:28 am

I thought this was cute blog and made some good points. Main one, just be yourself, so the other person knows who they are falling for. I also have had issues with number 1)...I like butches but I also like women...but then I have been in relationships where I had to deal with 2) also....I don't really consider it to be the other person though, I just think it is me figuring out what is a turn on for me....I am a "latebian" and I guess just learning about me. There certainly is the time and the place to feel like a princess though!

6/30/2012 02:37:57 am

@Dee,
We all have things we're attracted to or not attracted to. I think if we try to ignore those things because they aren't viewed as "right" we just wind up with people we either aren't physically attracted to or aren't emotionally attracted to. There is nothing in the world wrong with behavior that would be seen as more "feminine" or behavior that would be more "masculine." We just like what we like If we can accept that about ourselves and not judge our own feelings I think we can find more satisfying relationships. I've spent a lot of time in relationships with people I wasn't really attracted to because I thought a "nice" person wouldn't feel that way. But we can't force ourselves to be drawn to something else just because society says we should. That would be like forcing myself to be with a man because society says I should, when in my heart, I'm not attracted to men. It doesn't mean I hate men.

Bren

6/22/2012 12:15:02 pm

Well let me have you know the writer of this article is my girlfriend and there is no way this woman has the goldilocks/princess attitude. She is perfect the way she is and her thought process for this article was amazing. She is only spoiled by me and no others because I believe in spoiling the lady of the house. She has made me the happiest butch in the world cause has aloud me to be me. And we do communicate if there is an issue and we work together making our relationship and home work. That is what true relationships are about. So thank you for calling her a princess cause is is MY amazing princess..

3/20/2013 10:38:18 am

Awwwwww....so sweet!!! You two are lucky!!!

Bee Listy link

6/23/2012 03:27:00 am

I haven't spent a ton of time in butch/femme relationships--I mostly date other butches. That being said, I just want to point out one thing that really kind of bothered me about this post.

I'm a fat butch in academia. I work really hard-- I am definitely the "work too much" butch--but there's a reason for that. I have to work twice as hard as a female to be taken seriously, and i have to work TWICE AS HARD AS THAT to protect myself in a system that doesn't value my gender.

I have been fired from jobs because of my gender and sexuality, and while I feel safest in academia, I have known many other butch, genderqueer, AG, studs, (not to mention trans people) who have suffered job discrimination because of our gender.

So while you want us to bring home some bacon, recognize that the system often makes it incredibly hard on us.

Thanks for listening. :)

Cherry

6/24/2012 06:31:58 am

I'm a femme, and I usually date masculine-spectrum people. I think it's really dangerous, though, to talk about one gender (which I consider butch and femme to be) as the ones who do X and the other as the ones who do Y. Some butches (and men, trans or cis) I've dated cry a lot. I don't cry much at all. I really love to buy flowers for my sweetie, prefer to be the one driving, and no one is expected to be the bug-killer by default. I hate to cook. I like to sew and craft. I am the one who assembles the IKEA furniture, and I take pride in my ability to lift heavy boxes. None of these things have to do with my gender expression. I think it's dangerous to put each other in boxes, because I always wonder, "Well, what ELSE is expected here?"

6/30/2012 04:36:29 am

@ Cherry Hi! I think you have a point about putting each other in boxes. I think it's difficult because as much as I'd like to say "looks shouldn't matter nor do they dictate a person's traits" appearance is more often than not the first impression we get. Most of the time I'm a T-shirt and jeans kind of girl. I don't wear make-up or heels, but when I go out, I dress up, put on my make-up, my girlie clothes. I identify as "femme" and so portray myself as femme in my manner of physical presentation. But, I'm also extremely independent and prefer to do many things for myself, so butches who see me in my femme gear and perceive me as someone who wants to be pampered or babied won't really understand the total of my character just by how I portray myself on the outside. I think the same happens for butches. Most femmes have expectations of certain masculine traits from butches because of the manner in which they portray themselves publicly. For instance, I had a long-term relationship with a woman who dressed butch and talked butch (aka more masculine in characteristics) but emotionally was far more feminine in characteristics and preferred a more typically feminine role in our relationship. That wasn't what I was looking for or attracted to and so the relationship failed. I also dated a woman who dressed more feminine but had more masculine or "butch" attitude, which made her attractive to me in spite of her outward appearance. There are so many combinations of the ways we present ourselves and who we are that there's no one way of being or doing. There is often a disconnect between what we portray and who we are at our core but denying that those initial expectations exist is unrealistic. This is why it's so vital to be honest with our partners to ensure a good fit.

Ronni

5/31/2016 04:05:04 am

I am used to dating bisexual women who expected me to be the traditional butch which I happily provided except that I appear femme but I never dress girly so one lesbian told me one time that I was trying hard to be a butch. Duh. I also hate butches when theyre so weak in terms of keeping a job.

mx. punk link

6/25/2012 06:28:41 am

hi, sarah! um, maybe it's because i'm not a lesbian and i just don't get it, but the wording of numbers 1 and 2 really bothered me. i mean how does one act like a woman/man? for example, if women can be butch/femme, then fixing cars and picking flowers are equally womanly activities, aren't they?

this post would've bothered me less (or not at all-- the rest of it is cute) if numbers 1 and 2 were about being butch/femme as opposed to man/woman.

i know you were trying to be tongue-in-cheek, but sexist stereotypes are still pretty rampant in society; i don't think they're funny or cute. that's just me, though. and as i said, the rest of the post is awesome.

6/30/2012 04:47:16 am

@Mx. Punk
I can understand your thoughts as far as male/female wording go. When I talk about male or female as opposed to butch or femme it's because of the type of gender roles I'm talking about in those positions. There are many ways to be butch or femme, so to just say butch or femme I don't think really defines the trait I'm trying to discuss. Talking about stereotypes in a humorous manner is a way to retake those perceived ideas and regain our power over them, similar to the way we may choose to embrace the word "dyke" or African American people may embrace the word "nigger" among each other because it takes the power in the word away from the negative intention of the original user and returns the power to us who choose to create our own positive empowering picture of what a "dyke" is. By embracing those parts of ourselves we make them positive and powerful rather than negative. For instance, there have been words here used to refer to my albeit exaggerated but mostly truthful portrayal of myself as a femme in this post. These words include princess, high-maintenance, spoiled, entitled, etc. etc. all intended with negative connotations. To me, those same traits are self-awareness, self-esteem, and an acceptance of who I am. None of those things are negative in my eyes.

Meaghan link

6/25/2012 11:05:10 pm

I think that the only thing this post elucidated for me is that sexuality and gender are highly personalized and no one will ever be successfully able to construct a list that reflects the personal experiences and wants/needs of a person other than themself, including the femme who wrote this list. Aside from validating the personal preferences of a few people, I can see no value in sharing lists like this; I wasn't the only person who read it that was horrified at the language, sexism, transphobia, classism, etc. It reads like a personal ad from b-f.com. Why was it even posted?

6/26/2012 02:05:37 am

I respectfully disagree that there is "no value" in sharing a list like this, and I also disagree with your contention that it shouldn't have been posted. I like a huge variety of personal experiences and perspectives, which is the whole reason I'm doing guest posts at all--to broaden the perspective of the blog, since I can only write from my limited own.

Did you feel the same way about posts like "Why I Love Femmes" or my online dating advice, or my post about how female-id'd butches and trans men are different from one another? I'm not asking this rhetorically--I'm genuinely curious. Because it seems like those posts would be equally idiosyncratic.

6/26/2012 05:02:55 am

bw, i'm going to poke my head in to say that you're generally very respectful, thoughtful, and you tend to avoid problematic language. i think such lists can be fun to share-- your lists are always fun. for me, the difference between this list and your lists is that you're bw and you write like bw. know what i mean? i think it's how you write lists...

6/25/2012 11:43:05 pm

Wow. I have to admit that I needed to read this several times to cut through the red-hot anger it sparked in me. I appreciate the desire to find a mate that suits you and fulfills you on every level, be it emotional, physical, spiritual and so on. However your list wants to put every butch into a precise little box and makes many assumptions along the way.

You make the assumption that a butch identity is only for female-bodied, woman identified individuals. That's quite a narrow definition of butch. You're asking your "perfect" butch to be the stereotype of manly chivalry, but only when it's convenient for you. They must act like the woman you want them to be, but never cross the line into 'princess' because that is your space and yours alone. That sounds positively suffocating!

Are you aware of what your third point and fourth points sound like? Don't look now, but your privilege is showing. Gender identity and gender presentations that drift from cultural and societal norms and expectations make workplaces challenging and sometimes even dangerous for butch identified and/or masculine presenting folks. I completely understand wanting the work in a partnership to be a shared load and I read you saying that you don't expect to be sitting at home eating bon bons, but to be honest - that message is completely contradicted by the sexist, classist, and even transphobic assumptions and language you have employed.

I would challenge you to redefine how you perceive butch identities and the way that you interact with butch identified individuals. Every butch is different and there is no right way to live a butch identity just as there is no one way to live a femme identity. Let's break down the walls of heteronormative expectations and be in community with one another.

bee link

6/26/2012 02:07:33 am

Great comment. Spot on.

Anna link

12/16/2013 06:04:32 pm

Wow , I thought did I write this ? It's my total life to a T. I am very very femme only attracted to butches . I have gone through every thing you said. And no I don't want her into my girly stuff, I am the femme and usually in that dichotomy there is a lot of sexual tension , because of the differences in the couple , and we are being ourselves no playing het roles . We are just us and usually the dichotomy is very hot

sandra Bunne;; link

8/25/2015 02:24:08 am

I am a soft butch, looking to meet a fem lady that wants to be treated like a real lady: I am very out going and enjoy spending time with only good honest people that want to find that right butch to get to know. Very passionate lover no game or drama. would hope to meet someone who maybe interested.

6/26/2012 12:31:38 am

I have no problem with this list as long as it's sort of a personal manifesto for the author's relationship preferences, but the gender role prescription makes me *really* uncomfortable with the idea that this could be some sort of advice column with a takeaway message for readers.

One of the most wonderful parts about being queer is that we have the freedom to build relationships from the ground up without having to bend to society's "rules." Sure, there's a lot of pressure from mainstream society to behave in certain ways, but the courage and thoughtfulness that goes into being openly queer naturally facilitates courage and thoughtfulness about the way we choose to behave in relationships. It seems like such a big step backward to define queer gender performance as ways of acting "like a man" or "like a woman." What does that even mean? Is this the 1950s?

I'm femme and my partner is butch, and one of my favorite things about our relationship is our commitment to sharing responsibility as equally as possible both in and out of the home. We both cook and clean and work and take care of business as it comes up. She kills the cockroaches (OK, picks up the dead carcasses after the cats have had their fun) because I'm afraid of them and she isn't, not because I'm a princess. I recently made a minor repair on the car because I wanted to learn how to do it (and she thought it was pretty sexy and not at all a threat to her masculinity--besides, she didn't know how to fix the car, either). This isn't to say that we strive for equality so doggedly that we're actually limited by the mission to be equal. (For instance, she brings home more bacon than me because I'm a grad student with a small income, but once I'm done with school and working more steadily I'd be willing to support her if she decided to make a career change, etc.) It's just that, for us, shucking the *behavioral pressure* that comes from gender roles actually allows us to perform gender in more pleasurable, complicated, free ways. Sorry to get into personal examples from my relationship--I don't want to pretend that things are perfect, but I want to provide another portrait of butch-femme reality.

6/26/2012 05:09:52 am

"I have no problem with this list as long as it's sort of a personal manifesto for the author's relationship preferences..."

k. so this is what i was trying to say in my earlier comment. thanks, k! basically, if this post contained the same points it currently contains but it were worded differently-- yay. it'd be cute and pretty fun.

for the record, i don't think there's anything wrong with being a princess. i know a few princesses and while i wouldn't want to be their partner, i love hanging out with them. princesses can be totally magical-- i'm only critiquing the language of this post. not the princess-ness.

6/26/2012 05:37:38 am

No problem, and thank you!

And just to clarify--yeah, I wasn't trying to criticize a specific identity (like "princess") either. I was attempting to point out that it's problematic to imply that there's a limited number of ideal or even acceptable ways for butches and femmes to act, when in actuality queerness ushers in infinite possibilities for identities, behaviors, and ways of relating to each other, all of which are acceptable as long as consenting adults are involved.

Butch Wonders link

6/26/2012 02:00:22 am

To K, Meaghan, and EG:

Thanks for your comments! I'd actually love to have you write a post in response, because this is a very interesting dialogue; if you're interested, please send me an email. butchwonders@yahoo.com.

In Sarah's defense, she was doing what all of us do: writing as best she could from her own point of view. I think you're right to point out assumptions inherent in her (albeit tongue-in-cheek) article, but at the same time, I think it's important to recognize that it's *her* reality. In a relationship, she wants a butch who fits a certain mold. But I don't gather that she's saying that *all* butches should conform to this mold.

But like I said, please do write--this is a dialogue I'd very much like to continue.

BW

6/26/2012 02:08:26 am

BW,
I appreciate your response to commenters, but I still fail to see how this post was tongue in cheek, nor have I detected any of the "humor" referenced by the author in comments.

Just saying.

6/26/2012 03:46:13 am

Fair enough. I interpreted this post not as "funny" or satirical, but as tongue-in-cheek. I mean, look at #2. That's SO over the top. I interpreted it as: the author is being hyperbolic to make a point.

In any case, I appreciate your comments--particularly the one about the added difficulties butches may have in keeping (or finding) a job simply because of who we are.

6/26/2012 05:50:21 am

Thanks for the response. Would it be OK if I waited for a bit on the "full post" thing? I'd love to gather my thoughts more, plus I'm a new reader and brand-new commenter here, but I'm definitely interested in writing more on this topic in the future. If someone else wanted to step up quickly to do a direct response, that'd be great.

As for the idea you're expressing in the paragraph that begins "In Sarah's defense . . . ," I do, for the most part, agree. In fact, I think it's awesome that the author has such a clearly-defined sense of an ideal partner, regardless of how realistic a portrait that is. Maybe the title of the piece is a bigger problem than the post itself, as it implies that butches' failures to live up to her expectations is about something larger than her own preferences and frustrations.

(Also, it feels weird to address "the author" as if she's not here. Sarah, I'd be glad to talk/type about all this stuff in more detail, especially if my response at all resonated . . . or didn't.)

6/30/2012 03:03:51 am

@K Hi there and thanks for recognizing that I might be here. I'm running out of words as I've been going through these posts and kind of appalled at the accusations and assumptions about my character. I appreciate that you recognized that his list has more to do with my own experiences. We can only write from our own experience and perspective, and while this list has tons of over-the-top exaggeration there are still pieces of it that have been issues for me, and others in my life, over the years. I couldn't possibly express all the combinations of relationships or gender roles or potential issues that can occur in every possible relationships dynamic, To try and do so in this type of format would be an unrealistic goal on my part I'm not writing a doctoral thesis, just a little blog post. =) There were some pieces edited out that I felt clarified things a little more, but didn't really detract from the overall intent of the piece by their removal. The point I was trying to make is that there needs to be a balance between masculine and feminine, work and home, and that we need to be honest with ourselves and our partners about our true natures and desires so that we can find the people who fit us rather than continually looking for what we're "supposed" to like. I, as a femme identified lesbian prefer a butch who is "old-school" opens doors, buys the flowers, but that doesn't mean that butches who aren't that way aren't just as butch or just as acceptable as people. Nor are femmes who like to build things less femme or less acceptable as people.I think we all need to give ourselves the freedom to express ourselves as who we are, and to accept our own likes and dislikes without declaring them "bad" because they aren't socially acceptable, or sometimes even what a "nice" person would do.

Josie

6/26/2012 01:08:10 pm

I think one of the biggest mistakes anyone can make in a relationship is to pigeon hole a partner/spouse because it limits both people's ability to grow, change, and surprise. If there are such rigid rules about butch/femme, how is the relationship ever to survive when roles are put into such tight little boxes? If I had done that 17yrs ago, I wouldn't have been able to be surprised at what a kick-ass stay-at-home mom my butch partner is or I may have never known that I can be the sole financial provider for my family of five.

Also, perhaps butch/femme relationships have their own unique dynamics but I'd venture to say that they aren't THAT different than those of a myriad of other relationship combos (straight, femme/femme, butch/butch, trans man/femme ...so many). And that the author's five point manifesto apply to ALL relationships.

I know, I know, this blog is specific to butches but I just don't think that her list - tongue in cheek or hyperbole - applies solely to butches in any way, shape, or form.

1/17/2013 11:43:38 pm

I couldn't agree with you more!

tracy

6/27/2012 12:41:50 am

I read this list as tongue in cheek, not serious, but maybe rigid in it's specific-ness. But such happens with someone is writing their opinion. I like/love butch women, because they are comfortable in who they are. I'm not overly femme, but I clean up nice, and as my girlfriend tells me, I'm more natural, then femme or butch. thanks for the list, as it spurred some interesting dialog.

Kerri

6/27/2012 08:27:36 pm

What a brilliant post!! Sarah, I appreciate this so much and totally got the tongue-in-cheek humour. xKerri

Highpriestess

6/28/2012 06:34:41 am

It's a very sad day when a butch says "and this is why I prefer dating low-maintenance butch women..." Okay, look, Sarah was illustrating her own point of view. There are many other high femmes, such as myself, who do not share all of the author's point of view. I do appreciate some of the points, but not others. I totally got the "tongue-in-cheek" humor though. I kill spiders for my very andro-butch girlfriend (yes, she is scared of spiders), and yes, I do ride a bad-ass sport bike, ride with the boys and I am a top 50% of the time (well, my girlfriend would argue it's more like 30% of the time, but hopefully she won't read this!) But it's pretty much 50/50 all the way for us. We both have jobs and make a lot of money, she is a homeowner, she is a drag king performer...all things that identify her as the butch? Well isn't that putting her in the butch box? My point being, there are many of us who are fluid with our gender identities, so to the butch that prefers the low maintenance butch to the femme because she thinks that all femmes think like the author, I say to you...we all don't think like that. Unless you are just simply attracted to other butches because of who they are, now that's a different story. I still liked certain aspects of the blog posting though, and very much enjoyed all the witty reparte of the comments below it!

Amanda

6/29/2012 03:03:21 am

I love this post! My wife is my princess and I wouldn't have it any other way. I love making her smile and I love the fact that she relys on me for certain things but would also find it fun to change oil or get dirty right along with me.

Jess

10/22/2015 09:04:40 pm

Me too I'm glad my fiancee expects me to certain things... I think the butchie thing that I have done for her is take care of the maggots that were in the outside trash can...if that doesn't say butch I do t know what else would it would stand for. I love helping her. I'm from the city and she from the rural. I have a fear of snakes...she isnt afraid of muchbexcept s ary movies or intense sci fi or psy hological thrillers. I love bei g the butchie and feel her gripn onto me during the scary parts of tbe movie or hold her at night in my arms. She can do a lot on her own but appreciates now that she doesn't have to do everything on her own now. I have to get carpal tunnel surgery and it's hard to lift stuff and she is so loving abut it. That's one of the things that in love about our butch femm relationship we interact outside the butch fem construct as life situations change. She loves me for who I am and I love her for who she is. Sarah ty for this post I always wondered if there are other princess fems like my woman lol. Some of what u said she agreed with when I read this to her especially crying part. I was raised as a kid to b tough like a dude and pick myself up. I do agree that showing feelings is a good thing u don't want her to think I'm like a guy all the time for the reasons u pointed out . Ty. U have a writing gift....so write on :)

6/30/2012 02:09:59 am

Lordy people. This has been taken far, far too seriously and too personally. I write with sarcastic hyperbole in a humorous post about general stereotypes in butch/femme relationships. To think that any one person could honestly behave as over the top as this list suggests means assumptions on the part of the reader that are not based in fact. Just because I humorously suggest that I am a high maintenance demanding femme does not make it so, however the stereotype of this type of person contains grains of truth and that is where I think the discomfort comes from on the part of most readers. I had no idea when I wrote this post and submitted it to be considered for guest spot that it would spark the controversy it has, nor did BW, I'm sure, or she would have rejected it. T

American Scholar

6/30/2012 02:31:56 am

Sarah,

I have a deep appreciation for humor, sarcasm, even hyperbole around trite stereotypes all in the name of entertainment and creative expression. And if that was your intention I can appreciate your post, but I would ask that you pause to consider that your impact is far greater and vastly different than you a.) anticipated it would be b.) want it to be.

Your continued flippant "Oh, whatever" or "Lordy people" responses are very telling in that you don't want or aren't yet ready to own your own writing and the ripple effect it has had. If you are going to entertain through sarcasm or hyperbole around stereotypes and people's identities then you must be prepared to respect the voices and opinions and feelings of your readers. You don't have to agree or capitulate to changing your mind.

It is not easy to post a blog not knowing what the reactions will be. It is also not easy to really embrace the opportunity to really hear the thoughts of those taking the time to engage with you via comments. Because all of these folks who have left a comment are demonstrating that they care about the message you're sending and the way it's being presented. Divisive topics like stereotypes come with rich opportunity to put aside those assumptions and give pause and listen. I'm not seeing you do that. You're flippant responses are sending the message that you don't want to really stand behind what you're saying - even if you think it's merely humorous.

Humor can hurt too. Take a moment and think about how your intention may have gotten lost and delivered a hurtful impact to some of these readers.

6/30/2012 03:20:28 am

@Scholar,
I have not intended to be flippant, nor do I think that I have been unwilling to listen to other people's thoughts here that are expressed with thoughtful consideration. I have responded to several in fact, in a respectful and seriously contemplative manner with real sincerity and all seriousness. However I could not possibly address every combination of gender or identity or even relationship issues in a 5 point post and the personal attacks that have come as a result are uncalled for. If we are going to have honest discussions about perceptions I am certainly open to that, as I have expressed in discussions with other posters but I'm unwilling to listen to name calling or personal insinuations as any kind of legitimate philisophical discussion. Asking me to listen without commenting or sharing my own thoughts in the discussion in the way I choose to express them while saying it is ok for others to freely express themselves in any manner they choose sounds rather hypocritical don't you think?

6/30/2012 02:29:50 am

Lordy people, the only assumptions here have been made by readers. I am not gender biased or transphobic, high maintenance or even high femme. I am a middle of the road average independent femme with a sarcastic sense of humor about everything including myself. You can see that if you read my personal blog where I freely discuss my own baggage and personal issues in the same sarcastic self-deprecating manner. This list is hyperbole for effect and to ask me to write differently is asking me to be untrue to who I am and how I express myself as a writer. I had no idea when I submitted this post as a candidate for a guest spot that it would spark this kind of controversy, as I'm sure BW did not as well, or it would have been rejected. It's been taken far too seriously and far too personally Overexaggerated stereotypes are amusing because not only are they so far over the top that no one person could ever encompass them all but they also contain grains of truth. If we are mature enough to laugh at ourselves and our foibles we can embrace the people we are, whether that means being a butch afraid of spiders or a femme who likes to tinker with cars. The only part of this post intended to be taken as "my personal manifesto" is #5 in which I state that we all should be and embrace the people that we are and share them honestly with the people in our lives so that we can live our lives to the fullest with people who appreciate us for who we are.

6/30/2012 09:09:04 am

You know I really don't get why everyone seems to take stuff written in blk & wht so personally? If you are from the country like I am there is a very big problem with this whole butch/fem thing. My experience is (and again MY experience) alot of the straight women around here have to go to work in the fields to help their straight husbands. But they also wear their hair cut very short, bibbed overalls/coveralls and they get called names such as Dykes. Do you think they like being called this, and a lot of these people calling them this are other gay women or straight men. Are all femmes suppose to wear femme clothing like Donna Reed in the 60's and then go help out the hubby on the ranch/farm? Don't think so! So why is it everyone is so upset over this blog. Do you think these straight femme's like being called Dyke/Butch or whatever just cause they have to work the fields and can't have a cushy job in an office. For me the writer of this blog was just expressing her own experiences and they were not targeted at any one gender butch or femme. It appears that if you are taking offense to this blog then you need to step back and look at yourself and your own identity. Quit hating on something that is someone else's experience. Would you hate so much if this writer was a famous person? Why do you think there are autobiography/biographies out there? If you want to read about someone else's experience then don't criticize them for it, why even bother with reading the book/article any way. So for now, STOP taking things so damn personal if it doesn't pertain to u then don't HATE on it.

K-Chop

7/2/2012 05:46:23 pm

There has been a lot of good and/or in-depth discussion here, so although I was originally poised to write a full response, I don't find it necessary anymore. I know the original poster has responded in depth and is feeling more or less attacked. I don't want to attack her further, but I do want to explain my own response in case that is informational to her or anyone else.

The journalistic style of Top X lists is popular because it gets hits, but these lists can rarely be taken practically to usefulness because they reflect the ideology and experiences of their writers but not necessarily of the readers.

Case in point, the many women's fashion and advice magazines that showcase the best ways to hide your real figure, or to make your boyfriend feel like a real man, are regarded with mockery and skepticism by most dykes or transqueers.

In the lesbian queer trans gay bisexual canon, which is largely online and ever evolving now, I think that we are kind of steeled against rule lists like that.

I tried to make a rule list for femmes in response, but realized later that I'd failed to make one that would not exclude or offend someone. That I was writing this list because of a reactionary feeling based on the original post, which triggered something in me that I did not like.

I have personally had some very unhealthy interactions with femmes, which have begun with their accusations that I was not in fact what I presented myself to be. As the original poster indicates in her comments.

Jobless and mooching has never been part of my description. Most of the femmes I've dated, have relied on MY income, not vice versa, and I don't like to be a braggart, but someone has to step up to the stereotype that you introduced, that butch women aren't up to earning their own keep. It's a nasty stereotype.

I never had a separate "presentation" that was apart from my real self, so I was always puzzled by what they meant.

In the end (by that I mean at the end of our relationships), I was informed that I was not a real butch.

This, to me, is akin to a straight female divorcee who likes to twist the fork by saying "you never made me come."

It is manipulative, ugly, mean, and ungraceful.

If, in the butch-femme dynamics of current interactions, we are opting to borrow from the concepts of courtly love, then I think that the femmes who are ungraceful like this, should be discounted, just as they discount those of us of a masculine persuasion, who do not fit their ideals.

We can try to bend to their wills, but we never will, most likely, because in their one-sided need for pedestaled worship, they are unsatisfiable, which instead of a flaw, they choose to see as an attribute. They hope that a domineering, pantyhosing manner might make them seem ridiculously appealing and yet unattainable, which they hope is an obstacle that every true blooded butch will wish to prove wrong.

But if someone thinks like that, they are actually disturbed, and they are inviting you into the club of feeding their ego.

I guess if you are extra hot, it could be considered by me as a pastime, in my past. But now that I've come up in the world, who has the time?

Alyx

7/3/2012 01:49:12 am

This post just made me smile, it is clearly meant to be tongue-in-cheek! Those who are taking offence clearly have issues they need to deal with and attacking someone you don’t even know simply for writing a humourous blog post isn’t the way to do it. If you are a butch who was offended by this post then maybe you need to ask yourself why, it’s just funny, it isn’t a personal attack on you! Thank you Sarah for addressing some valid issues in a humourous way... and for making me realise I’m probably quite a good catch :)

As for the points raised, here are my thoughts:

1. Acting too much like a man - SOME butch women do need a gentle reminder that they are actually women! What’s with the burping and farting and giggling like school boys? And what’s so wrong about share your feelings and emotions or showing your vulnerable side to the woman you love? I’ve seen too many butch women throw away a potentially great relationship because they think they are supposed to be distant and not talk about their feelings or heaven forbid, actually cry in front of their femme from time to time (pssst... they won’t tell anyone if you do).

2. Acting too much like a woman - The whole point of being the butch in a butch/femme relationship is that you aren’t more girlie than your femme and that you aren’t a cry baby. As for treating her like a princess (I don’t think Sarah was referring to the bratty kind here), why wouldn’t you want to show her how special she is to you? In a butch/femme dynamic we take on certain roles because we chose to, if that isn’t for you then that’s cool, no one is saying it is compulsory. I open doors, I buy flowers, I lead when we dance, I change the wheel if we get a puncture and I put up shelves - I don’t do these things because she is lazy or because she can’t do it for herself (truth be told most femmes are better at this stuff than me), I do them because I want to. Why wouldn’t I want to be her knight in shining armour?

3. Not working enough - Here Sarah is clearly writing from personal experience, maybe it struck a nerve with those who took offence? As she said, she isn’t asking to be a kept woman, just that the butch in her life pulls their weight financially, what’s wrong with that? I think whatever type of relationship you are in this holds true and it was a valid point to make.

4. Working too much - Another valid point, which could equally apply to femmes. Working hard is good, working to the point that your partner feels excluded from your life or that they always come second to your career is going to cause stress in a relationship. The key is finding a balance, having enough money not to worry when the bills come in is good, but is the latest widescreen TV or the extra guest bedroom really more important than the happiness of the person you love? And if you love your career so much that you always put it ahead of your partner then maybe you need to admit to yourself that long-term relationships aren’t for you.

5. Failing to be honest - I think this hit the nail on the head and applies to all types of relationship, not just butch/femme. I didn’t read it as being specifically directed at butches, we can all be guilty of lying to ourselves and to others, but it isn’t a good basis for any relationship!

7/9/2012 10:08:15 am

Coming late to the party, but I want to point out something about where you say butches tend to have jobs, then lose them & mooch off you.

This butch doesn't, and neither do those I know. The folks who are that type, I've learned to avoid. It's a skill you might try and pick up.

That is, do some work, darlin', and look at something: if you tend to end up dating women with Trait A, I think it's something YOU need to figure out how to fix in you. There are plenty of other women out there with Traits B-Z that you're not finding. Ask yourself why, and work on it.

Sander

11/29/2012 12:50:18 am

need an advice from you Sarah and hope to read from you in my email. thanks

8/25/2015 03:50:09 am

Your response was to give me some advice; Open to anything that may help me; Waiting to hear from you. I really am very open minded,

bigbird247

1/9/2013 06:55:48 am

Sarah
Hahaha you go , As a butch that dates a high maintenance princess, Seriously i do!
I think your original post is cool and honestly i fall in the middle off your comments and totally love my role and my baby Grrl who again enjoys her role. Not that we are acting because we are not, it's just who we are and it makes us lucky and happy to have found each other.

Role

1/17/2013 11:29:34 pm

What part do you play? *role*

1/17/2013 11:28:15 pm

This sounds like more of a job advertisement. Sadly said, some so called femmes work, some don't, some clean, some don't, some work on cars, some don't, some who appear very masculine can't stand to get grease on their hands. I say, be yourself and attract to who you can riff with.

1/17/2013 11:44:15 pm

We just hit 18 years together, happy as hell. When we were younger, everyone said I was butch but as we grew older together, she's put on weight so by appearance, people categorize her as butch, but she can't stand to get grease on her hands, lol.
She's bigger boned. Whereas, I enjoy working on cars. Are we butch or femme, why classify? This post we're responding to sounds more like job advertisement to me. It could even be re-written. Laborer, Must pay attention to detail, show up on time, be trustworthy, must be able to lift up to 75lbs, haha! No, this is not an add for foreman, if your looking to be a foreman, apply elsewhere. LoL

smh

1/21/2013 04:47:10 am

this is exactly why the lesbian community annoys me... everyone has to psychoanalyze things to DEATH! The article is funny, and I enjoyed reading it.

Cassie

7/6/2013 04:07:53 am

This is obnoxious.

I get the acting too much like a man portion, but not the way you put it. My issue is with this preoccupation with gender roles that some butches (and, apparently, some femmes) seem to have. For instance, if I go on a date with a butch girl, I don't want her to get all bent out of shape when I pay for my own drink (you're still NOT a man and I still AM a feminist- which means I believe in independence and self-sufficiency and if it's a a first date I'm going to pay my own way because I don't know you well enough to know if I'll get a chance to pay you back somehow later). However, if you wanna spend a lot of time with your friends either it's fine and I will do the same or, if the problem of you ignoring me for long periods of time and a lack of good communication arises, it's probably an issue in the relationship- not an issue of you being too much like a man. We've probably drifted apart and we should maybe consider breaking it off.

Other than that, the fun of being a lesbian is that you can pick and choose which gender roles you wanna fill. There are no rules. I consider myself a femme and my fiance a butch because she looks and feels best when she dresses like a man and acts more masculine and I don't mean in the traditional sense- I mean mannerisms and other intangible traits, but she's still a girl. I look and act more feminine, for the same reasons. However, I also make more money. I fix things. I'm a terrible cook and, if you let me, I'd probably just let my house turn into a giant pile of stuff and not even notice. She cooks me dinner every night and keeps things neat. She hardly works and when she does it's freelance editing and writing and the money is inconsistent. That's fine. I don't need her to work. I know she is capable of taking care of herself if we break up and that's all I need. I like working. I get restless and frustrated if I don't work and she has a passion for writing and a creative drive that I very much admire.

Finally, this crap about honesty is just crap. Femmes are just as dishonest as butches and men are just as dishonest as women. Saying "I want you to be honest" is a huge red flag for me. It's like saying "Hi, I'm batshit crazy and paranoid and not at all self-aware on top of it. So, you should probably run as far away as possible as quickly as possible."

TheBeat

8/12/2013 03:34:45 am

I laughed at some of the things. But I'm a butch that doesn't act way too manly or girly. I myself don't really like to see other butch who act too much like real dudes (I've seen a bunch of them in one place and they started fighting like dudes, that was a real mess). I think my gf of 2,5 years who is a femme doesn't really like butch that doesn't have any girly side at all. And she's just like you. She likes to be the one being the princess but at the same time she takes care of me very well too. And the important thing is, we are just being who we are to each other. No acting, no pressure on how we should do this or that.

kiki

8/26/2013 01:12:25 am

She's confused and this makes me confused. There are men who will show you that sensitivity and there are aggressive femme women who will treat you like a. Princess and has her own make up if she prefers wearing it maybe she just likes gloss. How can you say you are a lesbian and you want someone who looks, walks and talks like a man. A true lesbian should enjoy the movement of a woman, the feel the comfort and protection. Yes this can be accomplished with a femme chick

Catto

10/20/2013 02:44:24 pm

I don't find her intimidating. She is a femme or a stone femme. She just made me laugh because she just described the contradiction of many butches face in a relationship. I have been in a relationship for almost three years (longest) and almost one year for another one. As a soft stone butch, I secretly wonder which role I should take and how I should behave. Thanks for sharing your honest princess view. I wish you found your butch and so do I.

12/1/2013 10:07:48 pm

@Chrissy

What you wrote is really interesting: "I like the way masculine women are desired. Sometimes I wish I had it in me to be more masculine so I can feel desired. It may sound kind of weird, but I tend to not like the way feminine women are physically desired."

I'm not sure I've guessed right (and I welcome your elaboration unless BW would consider it a derailment of the main topic here), but I could think of a bunch of reasons why someone wouldn't want to be desired in the way that feminine women are in our world. Hell, *I* don't particularly LIKE being desired in that way, for the reasons feminine women often are. Sure, like many people, I like to know that there are some people in the world who find me attractive, and I welcome them letting me know that in a respectful way...but that doesn't mean I'm at ease with the way people are encouraged to desire me *as a feminine woman,* for the reasons people are often trained to desire femininity. To be honest, I think I'd rather have professional respect, cultural honor and recognition for that honor, and the same assumptions of prowess and capability that are extended to the masculine (men or the more rare women) among us. And yes, in a world like ours, I sadly do have to "choose" between those two sets of things.

Thanks to Butch Wonders for continuing to post comments to this discussion that obviously raises a lot of interesting points for people out there.

Sam

1/18/2014 04:50:03 pm

When I feel feminine, I am more quiet, observing, and scared. I feel like I need to be pretty, and speak intelligently. I Need to consistently work to keep my image desirable.
When I feel masculine, I am more bold, confident and daring. I am (have to be) positive and I don't care about details. I am constantly trying to please and give out this energy, and it gets so annoying when you automatically take up the act around people... And they mistake it for who you are.

All the expectations. Just be YOURSELF. You can be quiet and bold. Observing and confident. Scared but daring. Positive and intelligent and at tentative to details. - it's just sometimes hard to tell people off that they are imposing their delusions on you, especially when you want to please.

2/9/2014 11:08:42 pm

I want to comment on the butch being a loser and keep losing jobs after they are in a steady relationship. I think it depends who you met. I am a soft butch and hate to not working. However, I hate to say this but I do keep losing job after I moved to canada. Is it because I am a butch looking woman and the management (males) like to pick me ? When the recruiters are women, they all likes me. Surviving in the job is not ez for butch even we have the will and ability to contribute to a company. Think of discrimination, princess. Now I am self employed as realtor. I can't accept being judged by management which are full of males and the stupid ones of course! Ha. Making six digit now ! Thanks to the stupid decisions !

stacy

7/16/2014 11:27:46 am

Okay this might strike a nerve and honestly i am not here to make fans or friends.
Well what makes a butch femme relationship is very simple. And never that complicated. Some of the things said had me lmmfao. Except. #5. Honesty is key. From both butch and femme. And i mean brutal honesty. Even if it hurts. Starting from #1. Acting like a man. A lot of todays butches have neglected their nature and have conditioned themselves to feel insulted when refered to as a woman /female / biological wmn and simply dont have the gulls to speak up on their true feelings from wearing a plastic dixk 24/7, grabbing their groin as if there is something their, boding their breast and even may go as far as excusing cetain words as of role play hence daddie, husband etc just so that can still identify as "lesbian" yet internally they feel as if they should of been born otherwise. Aside of that a lot of these "transitioned lesbians" what i call bisexuals who simple settled for the same sex for their own justification. Have a tendency to treat their butch as a man or as if a man neglecting to love them as wmn. Accept them as wmn. Calling them "daddy" etc.. as role play doesnt excuse why its done in public unless one wants to be a randition of a man. Too many of todays femmes almost have this expectation just because one is butch one must "do as a man" forgetting the two speice can not be compared.
As far as sexuality ( what is done in the bedroom) top bottom makes no diff each has their own desires. Men and wmn are work aholics or dont work at all etc. The only thing that is disappointing is todays butch and femme can be bisexual hence the hetero conditioning. Believing one must be "manly" while the femme must remain lady-like. Forgetting we both as butch and femme grow from the womb as female grow to little girls turn into women yet selective few become ladies. Hence butch -femme

merrygoroundfemme

12/20/2014 06:12:19 am

I can't believe some of you folks are dissing this femme's post. All I can say is, you represented a convoluted minority who seem to be snuffing out butch-femme magic. She is simply speaking the truth about the elements that bring magic and joy to a butch-femme relationship (and from her own experience, though as a femme I'd have to agree with most of it). Butch and femme are genders: if the rest of you wish to have *other* kinds of sex (and lesbian sex) go for it, because there's plenty of room for everyone. But if people are looking for guidance re: what makes a butch or a femme turn the other on and have a stable but exciting relationship, take some of the femme words to heart. Femmes are still persecuted (both by queers and straight people alike) for their gender, and the butches posting here should be the first (chivalrous) ones to this femme's defense. Many of us are still drawn to this hard-to-find, inexplicable dynamic that turns us on when others don't. We love butches. And butches are also contradictions: they have chosen to embrace dualities, and that's part of what makes them so hot. They are rooted and strong in who they really are, feel it's their essence and has been from a young age, and aren't just doing it to please or impress someone else. It's not an act, but a gender. And unfortunately, because society also puts absurd pressures and prejudices on butches from a young age, they can easily get confused about what this all means, and learn how to abuse power instead of playing with it in delicious ways, or look to a femme for re-parenting instead of understanding how key that piece of working enough/not working too much actually is for a stable relationship (when one *can* work, as this femme said), and actually know that those sensitive, loving "feminine" qualities in a butch this femme is talking about don't in any way dampen the masculine qualities -- in fact, what's so awesome about a butch is that she can amplify *both* of those, bring *both* a higher degree of masculine and a higher degree of artful softness and generosity while utterly celebrating the femme's princess-ness. It's about how much bigger, bolder, and more loving that energy gets in the context of a butch-femme relationship, not about asking someone to suppress some part of herself.

Sensitive Butch link

1/25/2016 09:04:34 am

I am in awe. You understand and convey how I feel better than I ever could. If I could find a like-minded femme, I'd be set.

Sincerely,
Single, Chivalrous, Emotional Butch

HundredTenPercent link

7/27/2015 12:50:14 pm

Damn. Are you single? Too bad you're in another state. Look, anyone around KC, I have boots specifically for cockroach killing, just took flowers to someone last Tuesday who didn't appreciate them, might take three times longer than the shop but I can change your oil, trustworthy, committed, I play police officer during the day and police officer at night, if you so choose!

Looking for my fun, femme counterpart who doesn't have a stick up her ass.

Nice article, now if I can find someone who understands these same things.

8/25/2015 03:56:09 am

I had many negative responses to my posting, I did not intend to sound so butch, Just trying to be honest and find what will make a happy.

Bec

9/17/2015 10:57:15 pm

Rianimal Nailed it perfectly in her comment! Harsh? Yes, but someone needed to say it! Its exactly why I don't date femmes cuz their typical pillow princesses that don't fall under the lesbian spectrum in my opinion! Thr only reason they ain't with a guy is cuz most guys don't/like to put up with "those kinds" of sorry ass woman. I ain't even femme or butch and this piece of crap writing was redundant!

Baby Doll

12/26/2015 10:52:41 am

Her intention was to express her opinion on what Butches tend to do wrong in Butch/femme relationships and give examples from her own experience.

1/25/2016 08:58:24 am

I still want to know if Sandra is single and willing to relocate. I only have one issue with the "requirements" otherwise, this is the type of woman I'm looking for! You really can't dock someone for being emotional. I can handle all the butch jobs, I can stand up for my girl and I can jump into a fight and break it up but I am very sentimental. I treasure special moments. I like handwritten notes over Hallmark cards. I make note of anniversaries for every little thing (not that I celebrate them or even remember them the next year but they are noted). All of these little sentimental actions and memories lead to emotions whether sad or happy.

If I am in a loving relationship and we have a special moment, I may get emotional! My mom passed away in 2014 and I still have "mommy moments" when I miss her and need a good cry. Why should I be judged or docked butch points because of it? The majority of my emotional times is because my partner has hurt me in some way so if you know how to apologize or prevent the hurt in the first place, there will be a lot less incidents. I wear my heart on my sleeve. I share a lot. I show a lot.

There are plenty of straight men and butches who are emotional. It's just that we are in touch with our soft side. So, don't rule us out just because we have a good cry once in awhile.

Mo_Solo Stud

5/10/2019 11:31:13 pm

I am a stud who has dated many women and the two women I thought I was going to be with forever and I was convinced loved me ended up tearing me completely apart. They said all the same shit to me I started off casual and detached then they wanted me to express my emotions, little by little as they kept convincing me they cared, would understand my pain/past/etc., and they said over and over again how much they loved me and wanted to be with me I fell for their lies all bullshit and I told them all of my stories all of my truths my nightmares fears past pain family disappointments everything and they used everything I told them in confidence against me, completely shit down from me emotionally, lost all respect for me and just ripped my heart out which spun me into deeper depression and pain. Both these women had me convinced that they loved me that they cared about me that I could trust them and they betrayed me in every single way and just laughed about the pain they caused me and laughed about while jumping into relationships right after which proved they both cheated on me too. So for being a real person who trusted them and fell in love with them who spoiled them paid for every date drove across state and town lines to see them both I killed all of the bugs I lifted everything heavy I am strong and human I felt their pain and I listened and cared I was there for them no matter what and there were a million reasons to leave them and end it, while I did any and everything they could've wanted including protection and providing everything from money to dates to gifts to more in addition to my real love care trust all of the above for me being so good to them I got played used disrespected abused betrayed and I was left by both after they cheated on me and they told me how horrible I was in their eyes how I deserved the pain they caused me and what I went through and that I deserve to be alone! THEY HAD NOTHING BEFORE ME! THEY HAD NOBODY BEFORE ME! THEY WERE NOBODY BEFORE ME! THEY SAID THEY WANTED LOVE CARE TRUST EVERYTHING YOU FUCKING FEMMES LIE ABOUT AND SAY AND I GAVE THEM ALL THEY COULD ASK FOR AND MORE AND BECAUSE I WANT TO BE TREATED LIKE I'M HUMAN TOO, LIKE I'M A FEMALE TOO, LIKE I MATTER TOO THAT WAS THE FUCKING ISSUE?! YOU FEMMES ARE SO FUCKING ONE SIDED FILLED WITH DOUBLE STANDARDS AND ITS BULLSHIT! YOU DEMAND EVERYTHING FROM US EVERYTHING AND OUR ONLY BENEFIT FROM YOU ALL SHOULD BE YOU'RE ATTRACTIVE AND FUCK US?! NO! YOU SHOULDN'T ASK FOR NOR EXPECT ANYTHING YOU WILL NOT BE WILLING AND ABLE TO DO FOR US YOU ARE NOT BETTER THAN US AND IF IT WASNT FOR US STUDS YOU WOULD BE STUCK ARGUING WITH YOUR SISTERS OR CONSTANTLY BEING ABUSED CHEATED ON AND LIED TO BY THE SAME MEN YOU DON'T WANT US TO ACT TOO MUCH LIKE! YOU FEMMES DON'T VALUE US STUDS AND YOU FEEL ENTITLED! YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED YOU HAVE TO EARN OUR LOVE RESPECT CARE AND TRUST TOO! A FINE BODY AND A PRETTY FACE DON'T MEAN SHIT WHEN YOU'RE LIVING BREATHING SCUM ON THE INSIDE WILLING TO TEAR SOMEONE'S HEART AND LIFE APART TO FEEL LIKE A PRINCESS! MY EXES GOT ME BROKE UNEMPLOYED HOMELESS ALIENATED FROM MY FAMILY ALIENATED FROM MY FRIENDS AGGRAVATED STRESSED FILLED WITH MAJOR TRUST ISSUES WORSE THAN EVER AND ENDLESSLY VULNERABLE UNDER ALL THEIR LIES JUST TO LEAVE ME WHILE SHITTING ALL OVER MY NAME AND LEAVING MY LIFE AS THE MESS THEY MADE IT! I PAID FOR EVERYTHING I PROVIDED EVERYTHING I DID EVERYTHING I SAID ALL THE RIGHT THINGS I WAS ALWAYS THEIR I CARED I DEVOTED MYSELF TO THEM I PLANNED FOR MARRIAGE AND KIDS AND THEY WERE PLAYING ME THE WHOLE TIME LYING TO ME AND FUCKED UP MY HEART AND MY HEAD TO THE POINT I LOOK AT WOMEN NOW AND I'M JUST ANGRY, I AM FILLED WITH RAGE! MY OWN GENDER DOING ME SO WRONG WHEN I WAS SO RIGHT AND GOOD TO THEM, WHAT IS YOUR EXPLANATION FOR THIS?! I WAS TOO GOOD FOR THEM WAY BETTER THAN THEY EVER DESERVED AND FOR THAT I GET USED LIKE A TAMPON AND THROWN IN THE TRASH TO THEN BE CALLED NOTHING BUT THE WORST?! HOW CAN THEY GET AWAY WITH THIS?! HOW IS IT FAIR FOR ME TO HAVE MY LIFE DESTROYED LIKE THIS JUST TO FIX IT ALL BY MYSELF?! HOW COULD WOMEN MY OWN GENDER BE SO COLD SO INHUMANE AND JUST MOVE ON LIKE I WAS BAD TO THEM?! SOMEBODY REAL TALK TO ME I WANT TO READ SENSIBLE RESPONSES, THIS IS REAL LIFE NOT NO DAMN SCRIPT AND THIS IS WHERE I'M STILL STUCK AFTER ALL THE SHIT THOSE TWO CUNTS PUT ME THROUGH I AM STUCK CLEANING UP THE SHAMBLES THEY LEFT MY LIFE IN! EVERYTHING I DID FOR THEM THEY NEVER DID FOR ME, PLEASE WOMEN TO ALL OF THE REAL WOMEN OUT THERE STUDS AND FEMMES TALK TO ME THEY NEVER EXPLAINED WHY THEY TREATED ME LIKE SHIT THEY LEFT ME IN THE DARK AFTER ALL THE SHIT THEY DID TO MY LIFE, PLEASE SOMEBODY REPLY WITH CARE WITH HUMANITY: HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO ME TWICE IN A ROW, ONE RIGHT AFTER THE OTHER???

Lee

11/13/2021 11:43:42 am

I almost always agree with a femme because I love girlie girls, but I act like a man mostly, but then I am stone butch. I happen to agree with you honey.

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