In Which My Body and Clothes Do Not Align, and I Confuse Others

10/6/2012

I just went shopping to help a male friend of mine buy casual clothes for work. I learned that I am not alone in having difficulty finding menswear that fits me well...

My friend is a small guy, but not tiny. He is probably 5 ft 6 or so, and very slim. Men's shirts with a 14.5 collar simply didn't fit him. For the most part, the sleeves were way too long — even the 32–33's — and so were the shoulders. The Banana Republic smalls were even too big, which I didn't know was humanly possible. He was a good sport about it, and he and his girlfriend and I were eventually able to find a few — but just a few — shirts that fit.

Of course, I couldn't resist trying on a some shirts myself, whereupon I was once again confronted with the all-too-familiar problem of having boobs and hips. My neck is a 15.5, but if you have ever tried to button a 15.5 — or even a 16.5 — men's shirt over a pair of size Ds, you know how impossible it is. The 17.5 fits fine around the chest and hips, but is just way, way too big everywhere else. Of course, some brands work better than others (CK is my current go-to for shirts), but overall it was just one of those days where nothing fits quite right.

On days like this, sometimes I wish that I didn't have boobs or hips, or at least had less, um, ample ones. But my boobs and my hips are a part of me, and I feel comfortable with them; I just wish that the clothing I like worked for the body I have. Sigh.

I was also "sir'd" twice. (Usually, clerks aren't sure what to call me, so they don't use a pronoun at all.) One of those times was particularly awkward today. A salesclerk said, "Can I help you sir?" I turned around and he said, "oh, ma'am, I'm sorry." I said, "it's okay." He apologized again, and to try to make him feel less awkward, I said "I have a men's shirt on, so I understand." He looked at me a minute and then said, "Well, your haircut confuses us."

What?! Who is this "us?" And what is so incredibly confusing about a woman with short hair? The "confusion" point annoyed me in a way that being called sir never does. Grrr!

27 Comments

Randahl

10/6/2012 01:10:27 pm

I have to admit I laughed out loud because I heard "your haircut confuses us" in the Lord of the Rings Golem voice.

Confusion and apologies don't get to me as much as being ignored or treated coldly. Then again, I do live in The South so perhaps my standards are lower.

For shirts, I dunno how you would feel about this, but the brands Nine West and Apt 9 (not high end, I know) make women's button down shirts that other than being tailored to accommodate a woman's chest and hips, look just like men's button downs, same collar, same cuffs, similar colors and patterns, no lace or frill or anything fluffy.

Butch Wonders link

10/12/2012 12:31:09 pm

Hmm, maybe I've looked at these with a biased eye, but I feel like the Nine West and Apt 9 stuff is so girly! Like, the ones I've seen don't button all the way up, and are too short. Maybe I'm missing out, though! Will you send me a link or two so I can check them out?

WWG

10/6/2012 03:02:55 pm

I laughed at the royal "us" too, but maybe he meant "us" as in retail associates?

I'm femme and a petite woman who is small busted and small hipped and buy women's clothes, but I loathe buying button down shirts because they just never seem to fit right, no matter what. I chalked it up for awhile to being femme and not liking that style on me, but with your comments, I'm now wondering if maybe it's just a fit issue for everyone?

Kali

10/7/2012 01:15:51 am

I have the exact same problem with shirts, but even the women's dept ones don't fit properly over my comedy sized chest.

"Your haircut confused us", sounds like he was a pretty confused person to start with if he's refering to himself in plural.

10/12/2012 12:35:31 pm

LOL!!

womandrogyne

10/7/2012 02:28:40 am

"Your haircut confuses us" sounds like something police make drivers say to see if they're drunk :). Shop folk often dig themselves a deeper hole trying to clamber out if it.

Susan

10/7/2012 02:50:48 am

I, too, smiled at the "your haircut confuses us." A comment that makes me think he and a coupla other retail clerks were trying to determine if you were 'male' or 'female'? and which one would go over to see if you needed help...

Zel Anders link

10/7/2012 04:00:32 am

Grrr! -- indeed! As a woman with short hair who stand just shy of 6 feet, I get sirred every day whether I am wearing a suit, jeans or on the very rare ocassion that I am wearing a flowy silk women's outfit.

I personally have never understood why we have to identify each other by gender all of the time any way. Years ago, I started just giving a pleasant grin when someone made an ackward (for them) realization that I am a woman. I rarely have any of those uncomfortable conversations now even though over the past ten years, I would guess that I have been called both sir and ma'am each and every day. Except recently, when I was on a buying trip for Tomboy Tailors at the largest apparel trade show in the U.S. (attended by 55,000 people). On my first day of the trip, I talked to about 100 men in a day and all assumed I was a man (because I was in a suit and bow tie) and all assumed that I was looking for shoes and suits for men ... in fact, I was planning some of the selection of clothing that Tomboy Tailors will carry for butch dandies just like Butch Wonders!

In December, Tomboy Tailors will be opening our store on Maiden Lane in San Francisco. Our website will provide the address in December when we are ready to open our doors.

Butch Wonders, I invite you to come to our studio this month (I'll give you the address early) and get fitted for a great shirt and suit - and because I so love reading your blog and appreciate the community that you have created for butches, your first suit and shirt will be at no cost. As with all of our clients, while you browse and choose from our many fabric options, we invite you to enjoy a glass of cava or wine or a Scotch or something milder like a soda. And wait until you see our selection of dapper shoes. Tomboy Tailors will soon be a place where butches and transmasculine individuals can find clothing that fits and an shopping experience where they are pampered, adored and celebrated. You can see more about us at our Facebook page at

http://www.facebook.com/TomboyTailors and on our website at

http://tomboytailors.com/

Thank you again, Butch Wonders for the great blog and online butch community you have created. We invite you and all your readers to come by our studio in December or next year.

Cheers, Zel

rmiles link

10/7/2012 06:50:29 am

The hair cut, really? That was funny.

Catherine

10/7/2012 06:52:58 am

Here in the UK, I has a very similar problem - I'm 4'10" with Ds. I wanted to wear 3 piece suits to balls/formal dinners, and eventually I gave up on designers, because taking a £250 shirt and then paying £30 to have it altered was depressing. I started using the tailor store website - you feed in your measurements, select a patter, and your shirt is made for you. It is awesome! You can choose a woman's shirt, but then tailor it to be a man's cut. Was a lifesaver, and incredibly cheap considering. They have a US site - http://www.tailorstore.com/

10/7/2012 06:54:10 am

^ Oh, when I say cheap, I mean like £30 for the shirt!

Stacy

10/7/2012 07:55:49 am

At least he told the truth. I think it was a bit forward and not really neccesary, but he did tell the truth. Funny though, I gave myself an ultra short haircut last week, shorter than I ever have before, and not one person Sir'd me this week, in fact I got called Ma'am at first glance even while wearing sunglasses repeatedly this week. Makes me wanna grow my hair out a little again. Oh, and also, I can't remember if I told his story before but I was waiting for service in a slightly darkened biker bar once, and was just sure the gal was gonna turn around and say "Can I help you, Sir?" and I was getting a little anxious about it, when she finally turned around and instantly said, "How can I help you, Sweetie?"........Sweetie....I now love that word and think everyone should use it. It is androgynous, and I loved it. In that instant, it didn't matter what I was or if she knew what I was. All the anxiousness flew out the window and we just focused on what I wanted to drink. It was awesome. I wanted to hug her. Not only because she was really hot. :)

10/7/2012 08:01:01 am

Oh, and I am another butch who has large breasts. Seems to be a trend. In fact, my gf and a couple other friends of ours were discussing this topic one night around a campfire and just why it is that the butchest girls seem to have the largest breasts so often. Everyone was silent for awhile while lost in thought on this topic and finally one of my friends responded with...."Irony?"

Burnthejacket

10/7/2012 11:39:33 am

I am too! I personally think some of the hottest butches are the curvy ones. Distinctly feminine masculinity is always attractive!

Lyndsay

10/7/2012 09:01:50 am

I think the best way round this situation is to get a shirt or pants that fit the widest/largest parts of you then have them tailored

Amanda

10/7/2012 10:28:32 am

Even women's button downs are not boob friendly. If they fit everywhere else there is always that gap in the center of the bust and then if you buy them bigger you're swimming in it. which is sad because they are cute.

Jamie

10/7/2012 11:18:14 am

I get "sir-ed" several times a week, even though I am 5'4 and last time I looked I still had breasts (but I do have that confusing haircut and evidently confusing glasses). People who know me are always surprised when it happens, because even though I am butch they see me as me.

The problem is some people look at you so superficially, that if they don't see at least one marker of women's haircut, dangly earings, make-up, and purse, then they don't read you as female. In their feeble minds the gender binary is very narrowly defined.

What annoys me is when I get "sir-ed" in a women's department, the locker room of my gym, or a women's bathroom. You would think that the context of where you are might make someone look a little more closely.

Regarding shirts, I now get mine "made to order" via Brooks Brothers- too hard to find petite shirts without darts. They are expensive, but worth it.

Caitlin

10/7/2012 06:22:53 pm

I'm a 17 y/o baby butch and I have have smallish boobs (b cup) but larger hips and hate going shopping because nothing I like ever fits me. And because people (sales assistants, friends, parents) like to tell me how pretty I could be if I wore some nice, more flattering clothes, makeup, jewellery and heels.

Being just under 6' and and still growing, also with a confusing haircut (looks like it could belong on a man or a woman) and clothes that don't exactly accentuate the presence of boobs I am also fairly frequently read as male and it doesn't usually bother me. The only time this doesn't really happen is when i'm wearing my all girls school uniform, a dress.

The only times it bothers me are: when people then feel the need to make a judgement on your perceived attractiveness based on the fact you don't look like their idea of what a woman should look like (eg at work male customer asks if I'm male or female, I tell him I'm female, he tells me how sorry he is for me.) Or, when someone who's opinion I actually care about makes a judgment call (eg misgendered in a shop while out with my mother, leaves shop and mother proceeds with a tirade starting with "I hope you're happy!!" and ending with "I'm embarrassed to be seen with you!!")

Heather link

10/9/2012 12:17:42 am

You have to find out who you are outside of who someone else wants you to be..

Caitlin, I'm so sorry to hear about what you have to put up with. First comes first, you would not be so pretty if you dressed in dresses and heels! Because that is not who you are. So you would be uncomfortable and miserable and it would show!
And.. Most importantly, you shouldn't have to change who you are to make those around you happy!
I think you're still finding your style. But the good news is there are a lot of companies that are making men style clothes to fit a woman's body. Just look at the one's mentioned here : Tomboy Tailors, Nine West, Apt 9, etc... Maybe if you don't have these stores nearby you could try some online shopping. Don't give up. You'll be happier being yourself. Promise. ;)

10/12/2012 12:34:58 pm

Wow, I can't believe she says that she's embarrassed to be seen with you. That just isn't okay. It made me really angry to read that. Maybe you can snap back with something like, "And I'm embarrassed to have a mother who's acting so close-minded, so I guess we're even!"

10/14/2012 04:44:03 pm

Thank you both so much for your kind words!

Ahh well.. I have a week left of high school and only the next 3 months of summer between me and moving out. In most ways I think its not worth the arguments with her, I can put up with it for another 3 months and I'm hoping that not being confronted by my appearance every day might give her time to calm down and get used to it. I mostly get around it by wearing the clothes and associated jewellery she wants me to out of the house then changing somewhere later on, and hiding certain clothing items that will provoke "discussion" eg ties etc. This is fairly workable and I keep reminding myself that its not for much longer.

Could be worse! She says she still loves me and she hasn't banned me from seeing girls, though she still says she wishes I would try boys. On the whole, I'm an awful lot better off than many of the other teenage queers I know.

Ed link

10/7/2012 07:43:05 pm

I do not consider my body to be unusually small (5'8-155 lbs) for a guy, but finding clothes that fit, particularly button down shirts, is a major trip to the mall, I DO NOT like spending that much time shopping, period, but shopping for clothes is not something I think I should have to spend four hours on because I can't find anything that fits.

I have noticed, though that the country of origin, at least for men's clothes, makes a BIG difference in finding something right, fast. Sm, Med, and Lrg mean different things in different countries.

Made in USA: I am in no way "average" for a guy according to clothes makers here. I'm too short, I'm too slim, my over-all frame is too compact. Everything for men starts with guys who are six foot and built like either football players or Sumo wrestlers. Wither it's J Crew or J.C.Pennys, USA made clothes never fit.

Central America: Sm, Med and Lrg mean exactly that...for me. It's interesting, My wife and I went to Belize a few years ago, and I noticed right away that I didn't have to look up to look a guy in the eye. My wife commented on it also. Everyone was the perfect height. (She's 5'7) It was also the first time I'd been in a country where white people were almost non-existent. We avoided the places where the cruise ships come in, rented a land rover and drove back into the jungle to check out Mesoamerican temples. It was freaking AWESOME. The people are sooooo nice! The Afro-Caribbean music on the coast is a sound unique to Belize and it's almost all percussion. Dancing to drumming from musicians who really know how to play is HEAVEN to me. And because it used to be a British colony, English is the official language. Um....and the clothes fit. I bought a tee-shirt to prove it.

Pakistan or India: Small is "don't even think about it" Med is "If somebody helps you" and Lrg is just about right. I also have a problem with neck/bust ratios... uh...but not for the same reason. A comfy collar will automatically mean too big across the chest. Major drapeage at the tails The Marquis De Sade "who needs to breath?" collar, and, it's perfect across the chest, but the tails are too short.

I have a closet-full of button-down shirts, six of which fit like gloves and I save them for when I wear a suit. the others I wear unbuttoned, sleeves rolled up, with an appropriate undershirt, belt and black jeans, which go damned-near with everything.

Which leads me to...I think men in this country dress like bums. What the hell is wrong with taking a little time to think before they act and pull open that dresser drawer to grab whatever is on top and running with it?

I am not a clothes horse, but I don't confuse meeting someone at a downtown coffee shop with cleaning out the basement or digging a septic pit. Women look great, then here come the guys looking like a cop just chased them off their favorite panhandling corner.

And...I think I better shut up.

10/12/2012 12:39:08 pm

Interesting, all of it! Yes, I need to suggest to my friend that he consider shopping for clothes in Japan when he visits. From what my girlfriend told me about the clothing there, it would be perfect for him.

As for guys in the US dressing like bums... maybe it depends where in the US you are. In my experience, it varies greatly from place to place!

10/13/2012 06:59:04 pm

I live in western Montana, not exactly a fashion hotbed. Coming from the mid-west I noticed right away that dress is much more "casual" out here. The bankers don't even wear ties! Doctors look like they just left the golf course, probably because they did, but that's not the point.

It's just me. Some part of my brain started feeding me the idea that one of the manifestations of "self improvement" is a desire to "look nice", that being arrived at solely by my own taste in mixing and matching what I've discovered in second hand stores.

I don't mind saying, I've made some awesome discoveries. I found a mens silk kimono hanging with a bunch of bathrobes at Goodwill. I don't think they even knew it was silk. I paid five bucks for it.

10/8/2012 01:55:28 am

Stacy, I never thought about "Sweetie" being androgynous, but you're absolutely right. I do a lot of work with the elderly, and ever since I got my hair cut short all I get called is "Sweetie"! I get Sir'd often enough too when I'm in stores but I sincerely don't care. I'm definitely not trans but I think I prefer "Sir" over "Ma'am".

crazyqueerclassicist

10/26/2012 06:09:33 am

It's probably actually your body language that "confuses" them.

But hey, at least you're not a guy getting read as a butch. I'm at a women's college, so I end up doing that to guys sometimes....

10/29/2012 09:54:09 am

Why would it be worse to be a guy read as butch?

That's interesting re: a women's college. What happens when women transition? Are they kicked out?

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