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Butches and Trans Guys and Tension, Oh My!

8/20/2011

96 Comments

 
I've had many conversations with friends--butches, trans men, femmes, straight people, gay men--about the tension that sometimes exists between butches and trans men (FTMs).  When I attended the first Butch Voices conference in Oakland a few years ago, the discomfort was sometimes palpable.  There was talk of whether a person can be trans and butch, and whether "butch" is an inherently female term. Although both FTMs and butches understood they had a great deal in common, it was tough to come to make sense of what their differences actually meant.  These issues can also add to confusion for butches who are questioning whether they are trans, or vice versa.

The purpose of this post is to try to shed some light on this tension.  What does it look like?  Where does it come from?  What can we do about it?  It's a tough topic to write about, but it's an increasingly divisive issue in the queer and lesbian communities, and I think it deserves to be addressed.  I hope this post will help foster more dialogue about the butch-FTM divide.  (Of course, this tension doesn't always exist; I know some butches and FTMs who are good buddies and talk openly with one another.)  Anyhow, here's my working list of some of the sources of tension/weirdness/friction/dialogue/disagreement I've observed between trans men and female-identified butches.

1. THE IDEA THAT FTMS ARE GAINING MALE PRIVILEGE
In our world, men are privileged over women.  (Please don't make me start yammering on about the gender-wage gap and hegemonic masculinity.)  When a person goes from navigating the world as a woman to navigating it as a man, he is treated differently--and overall, better (as Kristen Schilt has documented)--than he was as a woman.  So, yes, trans guys can often take advantage of male privilege if they want to.  This doesn't mean they transition because they want this privilege, though.  It seems to me an unfortunate byproduct of trans men becoming who they really feel comfortable being.

2. FTMS' TRANSITION FROM A MARGINAL IDENTITY TO A (SORT OF) MAINSTREAM IDENTITY
Many--but not all--FTMs identified as butch before identifying as trans men.  Before testosterone and surgery, they may have passed as men sometimes--but afterward, most FTMs are eventually able to pass as men all the time (stubble, thick arm hair, Adam's apple, the works).  As butches, they were non-gender-conforming women.  They were unusual, marginal, and often visible as queer.  As I have talked about before, this is not always a comfortable feeling.  But as FTMs, they can (usually) pass as bio men in their everyday lives.  As some see it, trans men get to walk around a grocery store and feel like "normal" men in a way that many butches do not get to feel like "normal" women.

3. BUTCHES' AND FTMS' RELUCTANCE TO DATE EACH OTHER
I've occasionally heard trans men complain that butches won't date them, or butches complain that trans men won't date them.  But much more commonly, I've heard trans men and butches say they wouldn't want to date each other.  It's always been obvious to me why (lesbian) butches wouldn't want to date trans men.  Generally, trans men want to be seen as men.  And generally, they (eventually) look like men.  And if you're not attracted to men, this presents an obstacle.  But I was flummoxed about why most of my FTM friends would ask out feminine women, or other trans men (or occasionally, gay bio men), but never butches.  This confused me until an FTM friend (my roommate at the time) explained: "If I date a femme, we look like a traditional straight couple and it affirms my masculinity.  If I date a fag or a trans guy, we look like two gay guys; we're both men and that affirms my masculinity, too.  But if I'm with a butch, where does that leave me?  It's just weird.  Plus, she's a woman and I'm a guy and sometimes she's more masculine than me.  It makes me question my masculinity, which as a trans guy is super important to me." 

4. PERCEPTION THAT THE TERM "BUTCH" IS WEAKENED BY THE INCREASED PRESENCE OF FTMS
Many of us were "bisexual" on our way to full-blown gayness, right?  Well, many FTMs identify as butch on the way to trans maleness.  So "butch" risks being seen as a phase or a transitional state rather than a place people stay.  Butches who are permanent, dyed-in-the-wool butches may be seen as FTMs in the making.  Mostly, I think: who cares?  If you're a butch, be a butch.  Yeah, other people might think you'll become trans.  Then you won't.  Then they'll understand that it's not a phase.  At the same time, it's annoying not to have your identity recognized or taken seriously.  It's also annoying to be called "he" when you want to be called "she" (just like the reverse). 

5. CONCERN THAT BUTCHES ARE A "DYING" BREED
Transitioning is usually a one-way ratchet; butches sometimes become trans guys; trans guys rarely become female-identified butches.  So necessarily, butches decrease in number and trans guys increase in number.  If you identify as a "type" and you feel like your "type" is diminishing, it's easy to imagine how you might feel threatened.  Some lesbians lament the increased transition rates, and decry the "loss" of butches in the lesbian community.  I get this sentiment--I really do.  But it overlooks the important fact that transition has only recently become widely available.  This means that for a very long time, there was probably a backlog of women who would have wanted to take T and have surgery, but because they couldn't, they identified as butch--the closest identity available.  They may have always experienced gender dysphoria, but had no way to do anything about it.  Indeed, it might not have even occurred to them, since trans visibility is a relatively new phenomenon.  In my opinion it's likely that these factors artificially inflated the number of female butches.  If I'm right, then we're not "losing" butches; we never "had" as many as we thought to begin with.  We just got to borrow thousands of trans guys until society caught up.

6. THE NOTION THAT THERE'S TOO MUCH PRESSURE TO TRANSITION
I've heard many butches and FTMs say that pressure is put on gender-nonconforming teens to identify as trans.  If you're a masculine female, this story goes, your friends will tell you that you must be trans; after all, shouldn't your biology line up with your internal feelings of masculinity?  I have no idea whether this "pressure" story is true.  I'm not a teenager, and the very few FTM teenagers I do know are going through hell to make their parents understand that they're trans boys, not "just" lesbians.  At the same time, it's true that butches are sometimes asked if they're going to become men.  Still, this falls short of "pressure," doesn't it?

7. THE IDEA THAT FTMS ABANDON THE GAY COMMUNITY BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE SEEN AS "NORMAL"
True, some trans men just want to pass as het guys and completely dissociate with the queer community.  Yeah, I wish these folks were more interested in spotlighting the "T" in "LGBT," but you know what?  They're not obligated to.  Imagine feeling like you were born in the wrong body, and that everyone had seen you inaccurately your entire life.  Maybe all you'd want to do is quietly pass.  Maybe you never saw yourself as part of the gay community in the first place.  My grandmother used to say not to judge anyone until you've walked a mile in their moccasins, and that applies here.  Not to mention--there are plenty of gay men and lesbians who've never lifted one homosexual finger for gay rights.  I have an uncle who's been in the closet (with his "roommate" of 15 years--I kid you not) so long that he reeks of mothballs.  And there are plenty of out-and-proud trans folks who fight for equality and take great pains to come out to whomever they can, whenever they can.  It doesn't seem possible to generalize with any degree of fairness about people's personal or political commitments. 

8. BELIEF THAT TRANS MEN ARE TAKING THE EASY WAY OUT
This relates closely to #1 and #2.  And sure, trans guys are often eventually free to be the beneficiaries of male and heterosexual privilege.  But...  the "easy" way out?  Really?  Giving yourself testosterone shots?  Convincing your family and friends to call you by a different name?  Getting expensive breast removal surgery that can take several weeks to recover from?  Risking being shunned by your lesbian friends?  To me, that sounds like the world's biggest hassle, not the easy way out.  I can't fathom that anyone transitions simply for the convenience. 

9. THE DESIRE TO MAINTAIN WOMEN'S-ONLY SPACES
Historically, women-only spaces have been important to the lesbian community (and to the women's movement generally).  If people who used to be female but now identify as trans men--that is, as men--want to become or remain a part of those spaces, it changes the spaces for the female-identified women there.  A lesbian bar or a women's AA group may not feel like a women's group if people who present as men, look like men, and identify as men are present there.  I sympathize with this view.  Just as I see the value of all-trans spaces or all-gay-male spaces, I see the value of all-women's spaces.  And I'm not sure that all-women's spaces should be forced to include trans men if they don't want to.  At the same time, I bet it would feel crummy to be excluded from a space where you previously found community simply because you started identifying as trans. 

10. STEREOTYPE OF BUTCHES AS "OLD-SCHOOL" AND OF TRANS GUYS AS THE NEW, YOUNGER "VERSION" OF BUTCH
I've heard this one mostly from FTMs.  It's sort of the reverse of #5, which I've heard mostly from butches.  The idea that "trans is the new butch" strikes me as silly, and conflates causation and correlation (tsk, tsk).  Yes, trans men are on average younger than butches.  I'm guessing this isn't because butches are somehow "evolving" into trans men, but because transitioning is increasingly seen as a viable option.  To me, any view that sees trans men and butches as inversely correlated (if one goes up, the other goes down), misunderstands both identities.

11. PERCEPTION THAT TRANS MEN REINFORCE THE GENDER DICHOTOMY
The argument goes something like this: Butches are non-gender-conforming women.  But trans men are often (sort of) gender-conforming men.  By transitioning, FTMs are refusing to acknowledge the diversity of female-ness.  They're saying, "I can't be a woman and be masculine, so I must be a man," which embraces and reinforces gender norms.  I might be totally wrong, but I think the problem with this line of thinking is that is misunderstands trans guys' experience.  Without exception, the trans guys I know don't say, "I used to be a woman, but I decided I would rather be a man." It's more like, "I was born with a woman's body and I always hated it because I always knew I was really a man."  It's not simply, "I don't always like my breasts," but more like, "These things aren't really part of me at all."

What do you think, BW readers?  Have you thought much about these issues?  Have you felt the kinds of tension I'm describing?  Do you have anything to add to the list, or can you contribute some insight to the ideas I've talked about in this post?

96 Comments
Samantha
8/20/2011 02:30:09 pm

I appreciate this article.

I am a femme, and my partner is a trans man, which is a new experience for me from dating butches. Now I feel like I am experiencing a level of queer invisibility. We come across as a "normal" (het) couple. I feel overlooked or shunned by my lesbian community, but not belonging (for sure) in the het community. It really sucks. I miss my community.

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cleanse link
4/24/2012 05:35:33 pm

I ll be back again in the future to check out other posts that you have on your blog.

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Restless
10/26/2012 12:46:44 pm

I also am a queer femme who was in a relationship with a trans guy. I too struggled most with losing my visibility into a seemingly het relationship. I found the loss of community very difficult.

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Trafic
8/20/2011 03:20:19 pm

I a 62 and have always lived my life as a Butch. When I came out in the 60's there was no such thing as Trans men just Butch and Femme and it was pretty clear which party you belonged too.
The womyn born womyn only space is my bone of contention with FTMs and MTFs. Michigan is the battlegroun here in the Midwest and it is getting really bad. It was supper bad this year with penis sighting. This is not something that any of the wimmin want or need. I have worked the festival for the last 30 years and am here to tell you that it needs to remain a WBW space period.

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luke link
1/7/2012 06:54:21 am

i'm sorry, but excluding trans women because of the gender assigned to them at birth is WILDLY fucked up, as is the entire notion of "women born women" spaces. if trans men are excluded (and i think that's completely understandable, as they are not women), trans women should be included, as they ARE women. you're just enforcing these shitty patriachical ideals of birth assignment being some kind of magic spell. trans people are not fakers, and trans women have just as much right to women's spaces as cis women.

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Sen
10/6/2015 09:53:00 pm

prreeeeeaaacchh

seth
10/6/2016 10:06:03 am

YES

jasper
10/28/2016 10:30:14 pm

I ... don't get this. If WBW/ females want their own space, to celebrate or socialize or mourn or heal or whatever they need, it's not for anyone else to demand otherwise or insist on a satisfactory explanation as to why. If female women want their own space, they must have the freedom to create their space and defend it, simply because they say they want and need it. That's like, social justice, safe space, solidarity, allyship, etc 101.

susan maasch
1/19/2012 07:37:33 am

I find this attitude toward trans woman is from the older generation mostly. Younger college age woman dont feel this way.Its a terrible kind of prejudice but more importantly it is ignorant. Trans woman are born woman,hello. They have a medical situation that is painful and scary and lonely and expensive.Great for those able to get support and even harder for those that can't. The medical world finally understands for the most part, the AMA, the APA, The Endocrine Society etcetc. So really, you lack education and you are speaking out of ignorance. It is their human right to state that they are a woman . If that aint enough for you then fortunately there are plenty of people, more and more all the time, many much wiser then you, that know that transsexual woman are freakin born this way and deserve respect.Really. And if you or a loved one of yours suffers because of a medical situation I hope people are not so ignorant to you about it. Do your homework, join this side of history. From a cis woman who is about your age and has 4 children and a husband, lots of butch friends,lots of lgbt friends and no hate and no intention of causing people undue pain.

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Squeakbat
1/19/2012 04:23:16 pm

I can almost empathize with your point of view. Women-only spaces and the butch community have been safe places for you and watching them change may feel threatening. Perhaps you can also try to see it from the other side. "[T]here was no such thing as Trans men just Butch and Femme and it was pretty clear which party you belonged [to]" sounds a bit like "there used to be men and women, they got married and had babies, it was pretty clear how you're supposed to act." Trans people exist. Please respect us.

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lindsey
7/27/2012 12:50:23 am

True, i find the whole "butch and femme" thing to be oppressive and gender role conforming. Many butch women will not date each other and act in a manner towards other butches that is an almost mirror of how homophobic streight men act when around other men, often including the fighting. Infact the whole concept that butch has to go with femme is a sickening mirror of out dated hetrosexual gender roles. In times gone past "butch and femme" or maybe i should write "femme and butch" (haha) was seen as a way out of hetrosexual gender roles by showing society how two women could be together, but these days its dated as society has moved on. Most streight women wear jeans and trainers and may play sport these days, a woman no longer has to be butch to do the things a man can do. Im a lesbian (i think) who is masculine but not butch, its possible to be a masculine female without being butch, i have questioned my gender and spend too much time thinking about the type of man i would be. But i do put the thoughts a side and get on with my life. I would not date a butch woman because my experience tells me that butch women want there partner to be femme, i would date a masculine woman who wanted an equal relationship with another masculine woman and could grasp the concept of two masculine women together with no need for a femme. If i was a transman i would be with another transman but not as a woman. When i was younger i was more attracted to feminine women so that i could feel more masculine when with them. But now im changing, its like i want a masculine side in my partner and to be masculine myself. All those years of thinking i was a lesbian, and having an ideal woman, and now the last thing i would want would be a very femme woman. I no longer think masculine and feminine have to be oppersite in partners for relationships to work. Even though i know that transness is in me, i will not act on it, i would rather build an alternative identity and let time pass, when im old and gray i will not care about any of this stuff anyway. And also i want to transfer that excitment i get at the thought of being a man, (infact the truth is i dont want to be a man, i want to be a young boy and grow up again as in me is a younger man who never grew up) to my life as a woman and hope with time the phase will pass.

Breeann
3/9/2015 04:27:40 pm

For my age I should not be this confused and I'm not sure where I fit in sometimes. I'm a T-gurl (MtF) or I guess still trany or transvestite with an interest in partners of either 1)bio male bissexuals/gays/who like T-gurls; & or also 2)ftMs and or 3)Butches in a more traditional, hetero appearing fem led relationship- but wonder if the latter two would have any interest in someone like me or my cross gendered nature as a top woman? I can find nothing online that matches this scenario although I have not looked for long, (just a few hrs tonight). I'm really ticked at the 1st group who are natural men because for the most part they seem insincere about any kind of real and long term relationship. I think I have communicated to hundreds if not several thousand online for the past decade and it seems completely hopeless. I come across fairly attractive for My age w/nice legs and figure, hence the male interest I guess. From all male age groups amazingly! Yet commitment is always the issue. Maybe it is my age (mid 50s)... or maybe I just don't fit anywhere? I could take an interest in a sincere butch or ftM individual but get the impression they have no interest in someone like me. That most would only be geared to pure lesbian or trans lesbian relationships I guess. I am also an aggressive top as in female lead, is that the problem? Am I wrong or not about any of this? Any advice is appreciated. I don't have an acct here but could be reached at headtrip 45 @ yahoo. Thanks for any feedback- Breeann

Mac Feagins
1/25/2012 02:16:44 am

Okeedockee...Wow...so many reasons to be phobic and so many of 'us' to use it on!!! I came out in 1964, my mother put me in Napa state Hospital for being a sexual dieviant. They gave me shock treatment 2x and kept me on millarill, thorizine, stellazine. They tried to re-program me to be a 'girl'. I loved living my life as a 'Bull dyke'. I was able to work in the industrial field as a welder and worked in gold mines. The troubles I delt with was a constant fear of men. I was raised by a prostitute and I was he rmoney maker. I know, even with my history, I love womyn!!! My story sucks as a child but as an adult I was able to create a nitch for me. I am now living as transgender and have never been more happy and secure with myself. My wife is bi so I satisfiy both worlds. I don't believe I will go full monty but I have had my breast removed. I am proud to be part of our culture and we must find our own selfesreem and being secure in who you are!! We are unique just by being us, why be so cookie cutter and hate???

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Ellie
11/5/2012 06:36:04 pm

A man is a man is a man and by any other name would still smell like androgen.

Women's spaces should be women's spaces. A "women's" space with biological males in it is a mixed space and not this woman's space.

I don't hate anyone but the sight of male genitals makes me cringe and move away - fast. I say this despite the fact that I sorted through an archive of thousands of images of male porn left by a deceased male porn author whose effects were being transferred into a national gay and lesbian archive and they needed volunteer archivists to help with the sorting - I AM that dedicated to our community!

None-the-less, if I wanted to see that in my private spaces I would be with a male. I am a lesbian and I don't want to see that. I don't want to be with men and I don't care if they were born men or were surgically created men. The whole CIS v Trans thing is so not an issue for me. The presence of male genitalia assures they will never be more than friends with me.

I can understand how people can miss their community and I feel for their loss and the confusion that faces them, but expecting that nothing will change after sex-reassignment surgery is like planting corn and being surprised when beans don't grow.

A butch woman is a woman. When I want to be with women I want to be with women. It can't get any more simple than that.

Any place where men are going to take their clothes off is not a place I want to be. I will be elsewhere - having gone where the men are not.

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Jamie S.
4/10/2014 05:10:32 am

Genitalia does not a gender make. Gender has nothing AT ALL to do with what is between your legs it is an outdated description of gender that leads to wacky views. Womens spaces should totally be a space for all women ( let me say that again ... ALL WOMEN ) as in pre-post-cis-whatever gendered women included. A women is not defined by a penis or lack there of. Places that instatute a "no-trans" policy are completely backward to the entire GLBT community and should transgress to the 21st century more accurate deffinition of gender (Gender is not Genatalia).

sam
8/4/2014 09:28:52 am

You know, this is what is wrong with the "community" nothing but fights and what you want what they want. A community is not about what you want, its about protection, safe space & when things go way south circling the wagons "Together". That sucks that you cant stand something "Dicks" so much that you would leave a sister or a brother out in the cold to die. Don't think for one second that's not what happens, we all know what the drug and suicide rate is in our "community" (If I could put that in sarcastic triple quotes I would) To exclude someone due to something covered by two layers of cloths it is ludicrous, greedy & I am starting to feel typical of the 1960's LGBT movement, sometimes I swear it like just like dealing with a far right version of the christian right!

jasper
10/28/2016 10:34:13 pm

WBW deserve safe spaces too! Why do so many trans activist folks recognise and honor "safe spaces" for all kinds of other groups, but not people born females? Is there something especially hate-able about females, so that their healing spaces are infringed on and demonized? Seems like old fashioned misogyny to me.

Justa Notha link
8/20/2011 04:03:40 pm

This is by far the most thoughtful and daring post that you have written here!

I really liked:
"If I'm right, then we're not "losing" butches; we never "had" as many as we thought to begin with.  We just got to borrow thousands of trans guys until society caught up."


Mmm. Bravo!

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Campbell
8/20/2011 04:14:10 pm

I completely agree with this article.. I'm a hard butch and when I was coming out it made it difficult to be gender queer because multitudes of people would ask me when am I going to transition.. I love my body.. I love being a woman.. I'm just very fluid with my gender.. I love being called by the masculine pronouns but I'm im no way transitioning .. I respect and love my FTM friends and I value them for their courage.. But theres no way they are taking the "easy" way out.. Thank you for writing this amazing article!

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Ellie
11/5/2012 06:43:06 pm

Thank you, Campbell. You said so beautifully what I floundered around trying to say. I also respect what Trans men have done, no one should take that away from them. Becoming fully who we are is always a supreme act of courage.

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Devin
8/20/2011 10:33:33 pm

I identified as butch because I didn't know about transppl. I am now a Transman. I still wanted to be part of the gay and lesbian community but here in tx I was basically told I didn't belong because I wasn't gay. All my lesbian (butch and femme alike) had treated me terribly and shunned me as a traitor. I was about to give up on the gay community here until I met some younger lesbians who accept me as I am. I'm still not welcome at the pride festivals here by other lesbians. I even got pushed and shoved.
And as for Mi(I'm originally from Mi) I would never asked to be a part of a woman only space. I mean why would I? I'm a guy. So I respect womens only spaces,its their right t have their own safe space. But I was upset with the Mi womens festivals excluding the transwomen.. but that a whole other can of worms I guess. I am greatful now that I am not having as much trouble being a part of the butch community. Everyone has the right to be who they are comfortably. I just wish Tx was more open to the fact that everyone has their own identity,butch,femme,trans,genderqueer, or however they want to live.

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Ellie
11/5/2012 06:48:17 pm

I am so upset to hear you were treated so poorly. No one deserves to be disrespected because of their gender choices in life. Everyone in our community should be welcomed with open arms at our public events.

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CC
9/7/2014 06:26:32 pm

I identify as a trans man. A trans man is a man. If you want the whole world to see you as a man, stop expecting lesbians to see you as their own. If lesbians are hostile to men and that's not our problem. So, social like a man because that's what you are.

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Sig
8/21/2011 01:31:22 am

Pressure to transition is very real. Of course it's anecdotal. No one's done a study and I doubt anyone will. I know a few women who've faced this pressure.

For example, my girlfriend, in her late 40s now, was under heavy pressure to transition a few years ago by her former girlfriend (in her late 20s at the time), and other friends of theirs. She'd say things like, "How can you look the way you do, walk the way you do, be in the (male dominated) profession that you are, be into cars and carpentry and not accept that you're a male?" She pushed her to start taking T, to bind, to use a male name and male pronouns in public and so on. (Without a binder, with that beautiful curve under her shirts, and with her female name, she is very often perceived as "male" by the general society).

It did a number on her head that she's still working through today. And I get to live through it with her. And it's not easy, and there's no support or acknowledgement of this in the community.

Things *aren't* easy for teens / young adult females who are struggling with trans identity issues, but there *is* pressure brought to bear on butch or butch-leaning women by friends, lovers, community, etc.

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Alister
4/8/2014 04:05:17 pm

I can just as easily state the opposite argument Sig. I came out as Trans 18 years ago and faced EXTREME pressure to NOT transition. This was partially due to transphobia, ignorance but also because I wasn't perceived as "manly" enough. Apparently being petite, compassionate, sensitive and caring are not male traits. I was young and this confused me. I was petrified of losing the only family I had left, my LGB (pre T, Q, I, and A) family. So I went back in the closet and fought my inner turmoil alone. After years of pain and isolation I finally had the courage to be my complete, authentic self. Which is a man, but I'm an effeminate man. Gender is fluid, a lovely spectrum just like sexuality. We are all different but rooted in our humanness nonetheless.

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seth
10/6/2016 10:11:19 am

same here!

Bren link
8/21/2011 03:26:15 am

Thank you for such a well-written and thoughtful approach to a very delicate subject. As a young "old-school" butch, I have to admit that I sometimes fret over what seems to be a decline in butch-ID'ed people of my generation. I also bristle when people suggest that my butchness is just some pit stop on the road to FTM. This past Pride, a trans woman for some reason felt compelled to give me unsolicited life advice "in case I ever decide to actually become a man instead of just dressing like one." Her tone was so condescending and disappointing to me; it's bad enough when the hetero world doesn't get me, but that sort of attitude from my own community is incredibly hurtful.

I think you make an excellent point when you say that increases in MOC people who are transitioning is probably more the result of greater visibility and accessibility of trans resources, rather than there being some sort of trend of butches becoming trans. It's probably true that many people who ID'ed as butch decades ago would have actually ID'ed as trans had that been an option.

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Terence
8/21/2011 03:36:43 am

I'm a gender non-forming masculine woman. I'm questioning whether to transitioning fully in my mid-50's. I don't identify with the average transguy. This puts me in a marginal area between old school butches and gen X tranguys.
I'm glad you're addressing the tension between transmen and butch women. I'll speak for myself, I've observed a sense of anxiety among middle aged lesbian women who compete for for femme women that trans guys are supplanting them. It's real.

In terms of pressure- the more I present as male the more my lesbian friends ask me if I'm going to transition.

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Edison link
8/21/2011 04:51:59 am

I love the care and respect you showed when writing this! I, like Campbell, present quite masculine, like being addressed with male pronouns, have 'male' hobbies and love being complimented with 'handsome'. But I love my body, feel at home in it and have no desire to transition.

I see nothing easy about those that do transition, I have a huge amount of respect for them because that road is also a tough one to travel.

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Damascus
8/21/2011 04:54:54 am

@trafic: I don't think women's only spaces should exclude anyone who identifies as female.

As for this article, I had no idea that there was this tension between butches and transmen. Then again, I don't know many butches (I think I know only one person who identifies as butch), but I know several transmen, and am myself genderqueer. As a trans* person, I have no problem with butches and would gladly date one. I think butches are hot! And sometimes *I'm* a butch woman, so why would I have a problem with them? The question I have about the lesbian community is this: why do butches and femmes so often date each other, to the exclusion of other possible permutations?

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Wendi link
8/21/2011 05:10:46 am

Thank you for this post. I imagine that it was a difficult one to write and, perhaps, even more difficult to actually post.

After reading it, well while reading it to be more precise, I had so many thoughts and feelings on the subject that I had to start writing myself. At first I wanted to write a comment for this page but it turned into a blog post of my own. Feel free to click over and read it when you have a chance.

Again, thank you.

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Wendi link
8/21/2011 05:15:30 am

@Damascus In answer to your question, at least for me, it's about who I'm attracted to. I happen to be butch and very much am attracted to femme women. I'm not leaving out the possibility of other permutations, it's just what I'm attracted to.

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Jon
8/21/2011 08:14:32 am

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and compelling article. I especially appreciate what you say about FTMs taking "the easy way out". Changing your sex is the farthest thing from easy imaginable. You basically risk losing everything you ever had to be seen as who you really are. You risk losing your family, your friends, your job. There's going to be months and even years before you will pass completely as male. The most minimally invasive chest surgery runs between 6k and 10k, with a minimum 6 weeks before you can raise your arms above your shoulder level again, and lower surgery starts at 20k and goes up to 200k. You have to inject yourself with T at least once every two weeks and in many cases weekly.

Luckily for me, my butch friends truly are my friends and we carry on the same supportive relationship we've always had. I would do anything for them and them for me. In fact I stayed with my butch buddies while recovering from chest surgery.

I hope you write more about this- this is some of the most intelligent writing I've ever read on this subject.

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Seeingeyegrrl
8/21/2011 01:52:01 pm

Love the article. Just learning about some of the gender issues. I consider myself queer, lesbian, femme, fluid at times and just met a transman...and was wondering....mmm is this someone I should like?....and I realized, I just really like dykey womyn...

Thanks for sharing....the comments are great too...

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LouMax
8/22/2011 12:04:09 am

I have never read your blog before. A friend of mine sent me this article. It is the perfect information sheet to hand out to anyone who says "I just don't get it" when referring to FTMs. I am presently with a FTM and I've heard all the arguments; from all sides, and it is most disappointing when the community you have been a part of for so long, no longer embraces you. We have faced discrimination together and separately from our respective communities. He once identified as butch and I am/was? a lesbian. I have no problem handing in my lesbian card for a bisexual one if that is what it means I have to do, to be with my trans guy. I mean, what difference does it make? Everyone wants to be accepted but no one can really take away your identity. I'm hoping one day we will all be one big happy family under the big Queer umbrella, but until then, articles like yours will help pave the way to better understanding all around. I know I will be forwarding it on to my friends, who all eventually came around and accepted us for what and more importantly WHO we are.

Samantha, I totally get where you are coming from and the only thing I can say is; never stop being proud. You can have the same feeling you had while being a visible lesbian by being invisible with your transman. Try to think of it as infiltrating the straight world and take joy in knowing you have a secret, and in the blowing of people's minds if/when you out yourselves to people who don't know. People complain that becoming trans is "trendy" which is just as silly as "taking the easy way out" but that doesn't have to stop you from "feeling" trendy when you are the only one at a gay party with a transman. As for your community, with time and education they will come around eventually. You just have to hang in there and never regret being yourself!

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Levi link
8/22/2011 12:17:05 am

Pressure to transition isn't always that overt. Take me---I'm 90% certain that living as male would make me miserable, but I'm so jealous of trans guys(/trans culture? I don't even know) that I think about it all the time anyway.

I don't think I'm alone among butches in wanting (sometimes desperately) a more "masculine" body (flat chest, or at least smaller breasts, less curvy waist/hips, hairier arms, deeper voice). The fact that it's out there---if only I identified as male!---is hard to take sometimes, even though I'm glad for guys who have more severe dysphoria that the options exist! When I see men who formerly identified as butch I feel both jealous and hopeless, like there's no room for me in the world as I am.

And unlike Trafic up there (dicks don't rape, people do---and the idea that it's impossible to rape without a penis is offensive, nevermind incorrect), I'm in my early 20s and a trans activist. I think you're probably right about there being less butches than there always seemed to be, but I wish it was easier to connect with younger/non-transphobic butches... and also with people who have gone through this thinking-about-transition thing and <I>didn't</I>.

I know this is all screwed up on some level, but if the whole subject is taboo, I don't know how I'm ever going to sort it out. So yeah, I agree, I really want more discussion about the "border."

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Bugg
8/22/2011 01:59:22 pm

I think the conflict is new and wonder if it might be partly because of the Butch Voices conference itself, where many lesbian-woman identified butches found themselves sharing space with trans men and thinking "hey wait a minute." With regards to space and soapbox sharing it might not be the most ideal mix because the conversations of most interest to both groups are so very different. When any one person waxes on too long and others don't get a chance to speak then there is irritation and resentment. Also a lot of resentment is brought to the table automatically by the trans folks who feel they've been excluded or dismissed (and yes, they sure have). We need to learn to share this space and everybody take turns talking, because the future of our movements even where they differ, depends on our getting together in this GLBTQ community and collectively deciding on love, tolerance, acceptance--eschewing the infighting.

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CC
9/7/2014 06:32:52 pm

There's no reason female identified butches need to include men. Period. If BV is for women to address their issues, men shouldn't bother them.

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Ira Sass link
8/22/2011 03:33:01 pm

Thanks for this post; I'm really glad you are debunking many of the myths that cause tension between butches and trans guys. I want to point out, though, that there is no mention of those of us who are ftm/transmasculine/trans male/etc but were never butch to begin with. Femme trans guys exist. Trans guys who don't date women (or don't exclusively date women) also exist, obviously. I tried to enact female masculinity for a minute but it never worked for me. I'm not a masculine or butch person, but I do feel much more at home in a male body.

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cowboyrhett link
8/22/2011 03:33:19 pm

Firstly, great article. You managed to hit pretty much everything, with one exception ... I've heard that transguys poach femme women who would otherwise date stone butches and butches alike.

To partners of transguys: check out my wife's blog at thissideofchanged.WordPress.com or her trans specific writings at cardcarryinglesbian.com . She posts under her nom de plume Jolie.

Anyone curious to dig into the mind of a transguy, check my blog out... I wrote a very specific piece of satire about this topic a ways back - when I was told I couldn't call myself butch anymore.

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A
8/29/2011 07:41:43 am

I'm replying to this slightly late because I needed a bit of time to recover from the Town Hall meeting at Butch Voices. I'll talk to some of your points then probably ramble a bit.

1. MALE PRIVILEGE
I have know several trans men who transitioned specifically because they wanted access to male privilege. This makes me cringe and I also have to wonder how the experience was for them. One of them is a chubby little guy who is 5'2 and I have to think he is going to experience male privilege in a way that is different from someone like my brother, who is 6'3 and in good shape (they're both white, so race wouldn't create a difference here).

5. CONCERN THAT BUTCHES ARE A "DYING" BREED
As a female-identified boi who likes female-identified butches I've definitely been feeling this. It's not just people transitioning that are causing this, though...people have new identities and someone who identifies as genderqueer doesn't necessarily have the same kind of energy as a butch.

6. THE NOTION THAT THERE'S TOO MUCH PRESSURE TO TRANSITION
I actually have seen some of this pressure but what concerns me more than the pressure is the notion that are are some young queer people who aren't aware that butch is an option. There are kids out there who think the options are "femme" or "trans man" and that's it. I've met some over the past couple weeks and I've had friends who have been meeting them over the past couple years.

9. THE DESIRE TO MAINTAIN WOMEN'S-ONLY SPACES
This is probably the one that is hardest for me. I love being in women-only space. I've been able to do some really great personal growth and help others with theirs in a way that I wouldn't have been able to in a mixed space. In the San Francisco Bay Area, women-only space has pretty much disappeared. There is trans space and gay space and queer space and pan space and so on and so forth but what used to be women-only space is now women and trans. Having people who identify as male in that space changes it dramatically.


I think that there are a lot of generational differences differences too. At 35 I'm kind of in between the groups with the greatest differences but there is so much tension. On one hand, I understand the tension from both sides and on the other, I think that it's sad that there is so much of this happening within the queer "community" when we already get so much of it from without.

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Jewell
8/31/2011 07:18:21 am

Very good dissertation, thanks!

I wasn't clueless as to my sexual preference; I've known since I was 3 yrs old I'm attracted to women. I just didn't know there were others, or that there was a word for people like me.

I was victimized by my Catholic upbringing to the point where I felt well, I must be a man in a woman's body. Loving women when I'm a woman is wrong, and God doesn't make mistakes, right? Ha!

So as not to offend my family (or the rest of humanity) I thought of transitioning & researched it extensively. This was before we even used the word "transitioning", when we had no words in our peculiar vocabulary like "transman" or "boi".

My conclusion was that it was tantamount to giving someone permission to mutilate my body. Surgery would remove my breasts. Okay, so now I'm flat-chested. But what surgery couldn't do was give me a working penis. I could never get my partner pregnant, or pee standing up, much less give her pleasure with it. Unless I'm woefully uninformed, things haven't changed much since the late 1970s in this respect. Or have they? I don't know.

At this point, I must admit to a bit of female-superiority. Why would I want to become that which I basically dislike -meaning, a man? Don't get me wrong, some of my best friendships have been with men. But they're not who I am sexually attracted to; I was a horrible failure at heterosexuality. Why would I become a man -just to enjoy male privilege? I didn't see any upside to transitioning.

I love women. I advocate for our gender. I don't want to be a man; I just want to love women as a woman.

This left me with the alternative -accepting myself as-is because I wasn't willing to change my body to suit someone else's vision of who I am or what I should look like because of my sexual preference. The process of self-realization & expressing who I really am within the confines of a strictly male/female (and predominately straight)world was slow, and not without self-doubt & loathing.

Like many, I became depressed & suicidal. But I finally reconciled with it all & today am happy being who I am -a fellagirlie, to quote Elvira Kurt.

My younger lesbian friends call me a "throw-back" as if I'm some sort of neanderthal version of the modern lesbian! I don't wear make-up, keep my hair short, and tend towards very practical, functional clothing, LOL! Think "Oakland dyke", circa 1979/1980. Funny how those tables have turned because back in MY day, we treated "lipstick lesbians" with suspicion, as if they had just hopped over to our side of the tracks to check us out, and would soon hop back from whence they came. I envied them because they could "pass" when I was so obviously lesbian.

I'm no longer dysphoric. I concluded that defining our world as strictly male/female is at best uninformed, at worst torturous because it leads to all kinds of misery. Imperatives like the younger generations telling butch lesbians YOU MUST TRANSITION.

If people truly understood the complexities of human biology, anatomy, physiology & procreation, how gender is determined when we're still just fertilized eggs, they may see what I've come to accept as one of my truths.

I remember bristling at a comment my roommate made years ago: "You're just a mistake of nature..." I've harbored animosity towards her for saying this because her intent was not to inform. It was to hurt and make herself feel hetero-superior.

After stewing over it for the last ten years, I recently took what was meant as a personal slight, spiritual violence meted out against me, if you will, and put it in perspective.

Some of us, through no fault of our own and really more attributable to a quirk of nature, are born female when we should have been born male, and vice versa. Who can say why this happens; it just does. There is nothing wrong with being homosexual. What's wrong are those hetero-centrics who look at the world through black 'n white lenses.

There is evidence of nature's quirks all around us, yet being the jar-headed humans we are, we stay stuck on black 'n white absolutes, when our world is so much more than that.

As for our lesbian community, all I can say is, don't do to others what's been done to us. Don't shun people (or worse) just because they don't fit into your neat little version of what humans should be. Step outside your comfort-zone and see the beauty in diversity, even within our own ranks.

I know we have a tendency towards separatism, and who can blame us? But we shouldn't use our shield to batter those who don't deserve it. We didn't deserve what may have been done to us by narrow-minded hetero-centrists, or closeted homophobes.

Do what you wanna do, don't bend to anyone else's notion of what you should look like based on who you are. Be who you are (thanks, Stephanie)!

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S. Michael
9/12/2011 10:26:51 am

What a fantastic read! Bells were going off in my head while reading this because I could relate to so much of it.

I am a FTM identified person. When I started transitioning, my lesbian friends started telling me that I was "abandoning lesbians". I was also told that I shouldn't want to be male because males are a**holes. Talk about your generalizations! It's been difficult for me to get my (now ex) butch-identified lesbian friends to understand that I am not every male they may have ever known. I am just living to be my own man.

At the same time, gay bio-men are reluctant to acknowledge my maleness because I don't want to have sex with them. It's a very odd space to be in and in no way easy! I really appreciated that part of the article.

Thank you for writing this. I really wish LGBTQ was as unified as the acronym but it's a slow process.

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rachel link
9/13/2011 01:21:06 pm

wow, great article. I think you laid it all right out. Maybe I'm nuts but, I don't think of women's spaces that include trans folk as being or becoming non-womens spaces. Bear with me a second here, basically, transwomen are women, and women are women and transmen were at some point (presumably for most of thier lives) understood to be women, and treated as women. Male privelidge notwithstanding, these are men who know what its like to be 'read' as a woman. That's not to say that each and every transman is a totally rightous feminist, but I doubt that many are as unthinkingly entitled as cismen can be.

AND trans is still Queer, still community. Personally, I find that gay cismen offend me far far far more often than transmen do...

I think its also pretty important to point out as well the intense vulnerability of the trans community. Assuming that transmen experience male priviledge in the same manner as cismen do is, I think, inaccurate.

The very notion of 'passing' indicates the very real danger, that of not passing. And speaking of passing, I think that needs to be addressed a little bit too. I'm a queer femme, and most people assume that I'm a straight woman. Now I've considered long and hard the very real dangers that accompany NOT passing. But sometimes I want to just put someone who 'reads' queer into my shoes for a minute and see how they like the strange borderland that is passing. Each state has its own advantages and disadvantages, is what I'm saying.

OH! AND! the pressure to transition, kindof a pain in the ass. My butch GF HATES being called by male pronouns, and she HATES when people assume that she identifies male, just because they don't comprehend just how very very very womanly my masculine woman is... I get we're trying to be inclusive and appropriate, but perhaps the best way to do that is to ask people, instead of assuming.

And essentially, that's what we need more of, open communication. I don't think allowing transphobia to pass unchecked helps any of us, nor does destabalizing or denigrating butch identity.

And I don't think that we can or should critique who people are attracted to as far as gendered permutations and presentations is concerned. I'm attracted to butches and not to transmen. Some butches like other butches. Some femmes like other femmes. Whatever floats your boat, right?

I prescribe more communication! More listening and sharing. And sometimes, folks do need to have separate spaces. I think we can make spaces for all of us without excluding folks. Maybe its just gonna take a minute to figure out how.

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PB
11/14/2011 10:02:12 am

Kudos to you on a very well thought, well organized analysis of a difficult, complex topic. I love that you have chosen to examine this issue. Thank you for an unexpectedly eye-opening article for me to stumble upon.

Just a few random thoughts:

Whether or not FTMs want male privilege, it is a defacto privilege of being male. I've know lots of feminist bio men who do their best to denounce male privilege and align themselves with the interests of women, nonetheless they are still privileged. It's the same as being white in a racist society. Privilege, like oppression, is multi-faceted, and one can have one kind of privilege but not another (a poor white male, for one, enjoys white and male privilege but not class privilege). FTMs may have a very different experience of male privilege because they have directly experienced female presentation oppression at some point in their lives in a way that bio men never will. Nuance matters.

I am not certain why our communities feel it is necessary to make over-arching rules (no women only spaces, transwomen must be included in women only spaces, FTMs are no longer welcomed in women only spaces, etc), when we are not a single identity "community", and we do not share single identity privilege or oppression. Separatist "safe" spaces are a necessary part of a sane existence for oppressed people - and honestly, this by its definition means that it is an exclusive space, for good or for ill. Hopefully separatist spaces then make it possible for us to talk to each other honestly and learn from each other. I believe there are enough of us (LGBTQ) to create happy separate spaces and enough of us to piss off one or some of the others of us who never want to be part of some space or feel excluded from a space we want to be part of. As a lesbian of color, I have certainly had my fill of experience being excluded (by overt or covert means) by all kinds of communities with whom I share an identity. It's not a new experience. But each is an opportunity to challenge my own certainties, and those of others, and learn more empathy, openness, and compassion even for those of "my own" who have, through ignorance or assertion, excluded me.

As for Michigan, well, it's privately owned by Lisa Vogel and Boo Price, and regardless of its own PR, or its customer's beliefs, it's not a democracy, it's a business. I happily haven't been to Michigan in decades, and it is what it is, not what we might hope it to have been.

Anyway, your article may be the first one I've read that so cogently analyzes a whole host of interwoven, overlapping, and completely separate identities in a game changing way. Wow.

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Pastor De
11/21/2011 04:54:16 pm

Hello Fellow butches-transmen-non-forming masculine women, I have enjoyed reading the dialogue that has taken place on this blog. I have a desire to bring the gap between butches and transmen because we share so many similarities and we need to embrace everyone's transition. Some of us always acknowledge the women that we are while embracing men that we are called to be. OThers only see the man and love that person they see and it is okay. How do find the agree to disagree connection so we can work together to build this community? As a pastor, same sex gender loving, butch-transmale, I am also looking for the God in all of this. Loving one another means just that. I have quite a few very good friends that are transmen and we don't see each other any different. The love of God will not let us. So, if we bring spirituality and sexuality together then we will find the commonality between our fellow brothers and sister, butches and studs, transmen and non-forming mascline women. Let's talk about it.

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Pwog
12/22/2011 04:25:37 pm

am, in confusion mode at present. My lesbian wife of 15 years has just informed me that she is transgendered. I'm lost as all hell....

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Tobias
1/7/2012 04:35:08 pm

Hey Pwog, that must have been a shock. Maybe talking to her, a support group for the significant others of trans-people, or a gender-specialized therapist would help clear some things up for you? Definitely talking to her. Communication during an transition or coming out is really critical, and usually extremely helpful to everyone involved.

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CC
9/7/2014 06:41:15 pm

If a person is a trans man, stop calling using female pronoun on him. If Pwog can either accept she's no longer a lesbian or leave the relationship.

Tobias
1/7/2012 04:52:03 pm

One of the most amazing things I found in exploring sites to get top surgery for my transition was the presence of female born, female-identified people who were wanting the surgery to remove their breasts. Women who knew they were women and just didn't identify with / want breasts, who wanted to be women with more masculine features. It's awesome to me that there's a movement like that, and from what I've seen general acceptance by the trans community, who understand that gender and identity doesn't exist in a binary, and what's important is how you identify, and there's no choice you can make with your own body that will invalidate that.

Plus, with transitioning and gender queer identities simultaneously becoming more visible, many gender-identity focused therapists and surgeons who specialize in previously trans-only procedures are making an effort to accommodate non-binary identified people. Restrictive rules that forbade surgery before years on testosterone are being revoked, any gender therapist worth anything acknowledges that gender is a very undefineable thing, and the communities taking the time to learn and grow are opening to the notion that no, you don't have to be cis or trans, gay or straight, male or female.

I hope that if surgery or other aspects or transitioning are what feel right to you, you explore them, because you don't need to be male-identified to be butch, just like you don't need to be butch to by male-identified.

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Tobias
1/7/2012 04:30:55 pm

I enjoyed this article, though the part about transmen reinforcing the gender dichotomy is a little ridiculous to me. Some transmen do fit in the dichotomy and are happy to, but many, like myself, also identify along the genderqueer spectrum. I have always felt genderqueer and transgender, because while I identify basely as male I do not identify with the binary definition of "man" as a cultural term. I've never once in my life identified as butch (because I'm so very not, though I <3 butch women and men), and in my experience there's no "normal" path transmen go to from butch to trans identified. The notion that somebody has to transition from female-identified to butch to trans-identified is as overblown as the idea that most people who are gay identified went through a bisexual experience. It happens, sure, but from everything I've seen in the community it happens a lot less than people seem to think or assume.

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Stacey
1/10/2012 05:04:57 pm

Excellent post!

Personally the way I see it is very simple. We are all human beings, we all have a right to be happy no matter how we identify. Why in the hell are people making is so complicated? You are who you are. If you're trans great, butch great, be the person you really want to be there shouldn't be a line drawn. This community is supposed to be about acceptance (on our part) and unity. I'm not seeing very much of that lately, and it saddens me. We are the ones creating this division between trans people and the rest of the community, both sides are guilty of it. Honestly I just say fuck all of these rules that we ourselves have made up over time. Fuck the rules of gender and identity. Can't we all just hug and get along and drop all of this and learn to accept people as they are? Obviously not or we wouldn't have to have these conversations. Excuse my rambling that may or may not have made sense.

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tania gybels link
1/11/2012 11:25:33 pm

I think everyone should accept eachother as they identify. I am so sad that there is this ridiculous dichotomy in the female queer community, and it's a major reason I choose not to participate in any butch related groups. I refuse to go back to high school, and I despise any form of discrimination. If community means having to pass some sort of test put forth by others, then I would rather not be included. to be clear, everyone should be accepted as they identify.

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Thaniel
1/28/2012 06:56:13 am

I'm a queer transman and I adore butch women. It takes guts to live that way in this society. As far as dating them goes, I don't look to my partner to enhance my masculinity; my wife is butch. But I usually assume that butch women don't want to date guys.
Several of your points seem to revolve around "pressure," perceived or otherwise. How is this anything new? Lesbians (and transmen) all experience pressure to behave differently from others, and we have the good sense & fortitude to resist that. I can't help but feel that adults just need to say "piss off" when soneone's trying to change who they are, & not be all weepy about it. These folks will go away to find someone they CAN manipulate, & you'll be you, & stronger for it.

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Lisele link
1/29/2012 12:51:12 am

I'm a femme (kind of witchy earth-mama kind) and my butch woman and I have been together nearly 25 years. I really appreciated the comment of rachel and PB and Levi and A. (And lots of others, too.) It's a very complex topic and a real issue in our LGBTQ subculture.

I find that butch is an identity today that is not as "fashionable" as "trans." As a student of anthropology and history, I know that changes in culture are deeply tied into self-concept. Medical conditions that once were relatively common simply don't exist today (e.g. catatonia was once a common expression of mental illness) and new conditions appear and become much more common (like anorexia). Conditions in the west (like pain with menstruation) don't exist in other cultures. Our reality, even physically and medically, is grounded in culture and now the concept of trans is gaining cultural traction.

So while I agree that many transmen of the past probably lived as butches in the absence of other options, I also think that fashion and pressure enter into it. We are all part and parcel of our culture.

I feel sad that younger people don't embrace the identity of butch as readily and, at the moment, butch is losing cultural cred. I treasure the complexity of my masculine appearing woman. She is highly emotional, she has made (some) peace with her female body, and her strength is a universal innate strength -- neither "male" nor "female." Her very being expands the notions of what being female means. I love that and its very precious.

She is constantly called by masculine pronouns (weekly) and I feel part of that is a willful ignorance insisted on and enforced by our society. Despite being very large-breasted, she is seen as male because of her suits and body language. Our culture will not see diversity of dress -- or powerful female gestures -- thus she MUST BE a man. Long ago, I realized that, often, if we fit the stereotype, then we reinforce it. If we don't fit, we are invisible -- thus the stereotype is stronger than reality in front of one's face. But no one can ignore my love -- what a personality! She expands the possibilities of everyone she encounters.

We are both learning a lot about what it means to be trans, since someone we had already grown to love recently transitioned. It's a process of transformation that includes some pain and some joy. It's a journey that I think we are both committed to.

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Holly
2/4/2012 08:20:09 am

Being "butch" i've had several trans men come onto me, I respectfully decline and upon them pressing the issue I had to explain why I was not interested... I LOVE women, breasts, shaved legs, sweet flower perfume and all. Yes being trans you still have a vajay but thats not what does it for me. YOU want to be a man, I don't particularly care for the species so therefore I can't see myself being with a trans man. I'm sure there are some females that are just into trans... can anyone shed some light on the subject on the kind of women trans men typically date?

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Marcos da Mota
7/10/2017 03:43:38 pm

We fucking need that article (Kinds of women trans men typically date) because for me it's hella confusing

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Paige
2/8/2012 09:18:41 am

The pressure to identify as trans is (or can be) overwhelming to many butch women. When I was in college a few years back, I got asked almost daily if I was trans, despite my identification as gay. Other queers made it clear that I would be more accepted if I transitioned, especially since I was not exclusively female (I am genderqueer). Being butch, presenting as masculine and having partial success at passing as cismale on a regular basis is not accepted and barely tolerated. It would be entirely less difficult if I could identify as a transguy and work towards appearing more cismale. Society is beginning to understand transgenderism, but it does not understand what it means to straddle the gender divide in a way that does not insinuate a desire to change.

My mother asks me regularly if I want to be a boy. At least once a month I have to go through an emotionally tiring process of explaining my masculinity and its implications to my mother. She doesn't understand how I could not want to be male or female. She does not understand why I can't be feminine. She doesn't understand why, if I feel masculine and sometimes male, I don't just transition and make that my identity.

Gay/Queer media is getting in on it too. Every main blog or website is boasting its trans acceptance, and increasingly blurring the lines between butch women and transguys, often using these terms interchangeably when they are mutually exclusive concepts.

I think that my main goal here is just to disspell the notion that butch women, especially butch teenagers, don't experience intense pressure to fit into another (newer) box.

6. THE NOTION THAT THERE'S TOO MUCH PRESSURE TO TRANSITION
I've heard many butches and FTMs say that pressure is put on gender-nonconforming teens to identify as trans. If you're a masculine female, this story goes, your friends will tell you that you must be trans; after all, shouldn't your biology line up with your internal feelings of masculinity? I have no idea whether this "pressure" story is true. I'm not a teenager, and the very few FTM teenagers I do know are going through hell to make their parents understand that they're trans boys, not "just" lesbians. At the same time, it's true that butches are sometimes asked if they're going to become men. Still, this falls short of "pressure," doesn't it?

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ecommerce web hosting link
2/27/2012 01:21:19 pm

Yes being trans you still have a vajay but thats not what does it for me. YOU want to be a man, I don't particularly care for the species so therefore I can't see myself being with a trans man. I'm sure there are some females that are just into trans... can anyone shed some light on the subject on the kind of women trans men typically date?

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Honeywell Humidifiers link
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Marilyn Junkins
5/18/2012 09:19:04 am

I really recommend a fabulous documentary we screened recently, called "SWITCH, Community in Transition" by Portland Queer Filmmaker, Brooks Nelson, a FTM transman. It's about the adjustments that the transperson's community has to go through when someone changes gender. It addresses some of the issues you talk about like gaining male privilege and invisibility. I expect that Brooks will be making more films on both these topics. He came and discussed the film and his life with us after the screening. He's very open and candid about his experience.

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JustMe
10/31/2012 06:15:17 am

BW blog,

“The purpose of this post is to try to shed some light on this tension”. Thank you thirtysomething women for writing about the subject and writing from a refreshing perspective. This is the most balanced blog I have seen, yet. And most blogs are not. I glad to see the different p.o.v. here for the most part. I came across this blog writing by accident.

The answers to these questions are with regards to the subject of tension. *Warning: My answers are Rated “R” for infrequent swearing. Don’t like swearing? – don’t read it. However, this article is about tension after all. Now, let’s get started with the questions. Reminder: text is flat and I am answering questions, not taking aim at any specific person. I used the word *you only in the “generalized” you sense. I am writing about my experiences, which did happen in real life.

1. THERE WAS TALK OF WHETHER A PERSON CAN BE TRANS AND BUTCH, AND WHETHER "BUTCH" IS AN INHERENTLY FEMALE TERM. – Within the gay-subgroup, “butch” is an identification and definition of lesbians. Own it. Keep it there.

2. THE PURPOSE OF THIS POST IS TO TRY TO SHED SOME LIGHT ON THIS TENSION. Tension. Where can I start? Gays, lesbians, genderqueers, transgenders and more? Umbrellas are for rainy days. In the beginning of transition, I went to and with respect to LGQGQ persons - reaching across the aisle as it were- I found that did not work. Sad, but it is true. Therefore, I will respect *you [*generalized], if [*generalized] *you respect a man and male environments only. Show off your big breasts in a tiny, tight, t-shirt thusly, will not be welcomed in the men’s bathroom. Lastly, the Rainbow flag means gays. Trust me, if it included everyone of the “so-called” LGBT, alphabet soup club, I doubt we would be having this conversation about tension right now.

3. THE IDEA THAT FTMS ARE GAINING MALE PRIVILEGE - In our world, men are privileged over women. *Last Warning: This post is Rated “R” for infrequent swearing. Now, let’s go back to the question. – Ah—what the fuck are *you talking about? I have your attention now? Good…here it is:

a) I don’t expect others to understand maleness. 2) I don’t have expectations because –expectations- are preemptive resentments. And lastly, 3) what does exist is the 1% percent are the gatekeepers. And, [*generalized man or woman] ya better be that everything that the 1% percenter is or the gate is closed. Otherwise, you are not it. As one girl of the Have More Class using her monetized-power said to me once, “Sucks to be you”.

Change how money works in our world and see everything change.

b) Two main points: gender-wage gap and hegemonic masculinity – Gender Wages. When I was enforced to be a female, I didn’t take wages and jobs sitting down. I said to myself, I am –not- getting that job from “female employment section” of the newspaper. Yes, there was such a screwed-up thing. For example, it had maids, babysitters, and pre-school teacher jobs. I was always “the 1st female” to gain this or that position where females were routinely banned. I had busted the door down, because the men weren’t going to say, “Welcome, we accept you with open arms”. Newsflash, it doesn’t work that way. If I desired respect, I could not take their shit for an answer. Lastly, I had acquired equal wages for me because I demanded it – not because it a given. And, when I didn’t; I voted with my feet and left. Some “one” had to start it, do it, and that “one” was me.

Girls couldn’t be bothered beyond taking care of nails or totally disinterest with doing such a task. Yes, I knew others behind me would follow. Okay, that’s nice. I only had seen other “butches” standing up for jobs and money in the workplace at that time. Why? Because *you had to take the abuse, the disrespect, and the sabotage on the level that only black men, for example, the 1950s baseball player, Jackie Robinson had to experienced. Therefore, I had carved out my spot in the workplace.

Girls, on-the-other-hand would run back to their support system and never come back to the job. I saw girls quit in one day. Later, the “other women” ran through the door after I busted down, did without a thanks, respect, or mutual support. How would you like being put on total ignore because you opened a door. It was oh yeah, *you; now get-the-hell-out-of-here -- “females only” now. Even though we offered to get to know you. The new-hire female can’t even tolerate my presence in the workplace. Though it was totally understood that if I hadn’t been there 1st — that the girly couldn’t even had dreamed a

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JustMe
10/31/2012 10:11:14 am

Part 2
about landing that kind of job or career making that kind of equal money. You have got to stand up for yourself or you will stand for anything.

c) Hegemonic masculinity - What? That’s a privilege? This makes make me laugh. There is always a price for being in a gender grouping. For, the price of belonging in our diseased cultural model of male and female grouping is to being ranked on the totem pole just like anyone else. The transmale and Bio-male are faced with this in the masculine world in our culture. Because it is how men in our behavioral environment treat each other. If you were born male, you would know *you are fucked from the beginning. Fucked in the middle and fucked at the end of life. It is just that *you don’t see it -- being female. Am I going to explain it here? No. It something that us guys have better deal with and now. Females have your own issues about not accepting each other. Please, I ask that *your time be spent on figuring *yourselves out and not us. When *you do, you are no longer wasting time anymore and creating positive choices. Remember, things can only change when *you change *your outlook about the thing *you are looking at. Only then do those things change. Until then, stop carping about us. I am not going to spend my time and my whole life talking about female negative traits, either.

4. BUTCHES' AND FTMS' RELUCTANCE TO DATE EACH OTHER. Where I live, not dating “butches” it is about not being seen as gay or sissy bios fags [yes, the word is used in a positive sense].

4. PERCEPTION THAT THE TERM "BUTCH" IS WEAKENED BY THE INCREASED PRESENCE OF FTMS. Have no idea what is being talked about here. I don’t hang out with “butches”. When they pick-up on me, “the radar thing”, I don’t look their direction or walk away, and go talk to another man. I am not interested being label by association because who I stand next to, when I have my own identity. Now that said in non-public situations, if a “butch” was there I would say hi.

5. CONCERN THAT BUTCHES ARE A "DYING" BREED. Some lesbians lament the increased transition rates, and decry the "loss" of butches in the lesbian community. – LOL, I have only met one female, a femme, who said that to me personally and she’s dead now for 10 years. “Dying breed”? How about yes, it is true. I am happy that I can finally be myself or finally evolve to be all I can be. Sorry girls, *you don’t have that “butch” to kill that spider or hump *your crap after moving -- again. Now, check *yourself, if your feel the urge to unload on me because this is the reality: “butch” was only need there for free muscle for a task.

6. THE NOTION THAT THERE'S TOO MUCH PRESSURE TO TRANSITION. – I have no idea. I am not a teenager. I do like the fact that the NextGen of people 20- 25 are the “Whatever Generation” simply because - they plain just don’t fucking care what *you are. Just be *you and show up. Thank *you, FINALLY!!!

7. THE IDEA THAT FTMS ABANDON THE GAY COMMUNITY BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE SEEN AS "NORMAL". – LOL. Any new male transitioning reading this, my strongest suggestion would be –RUN- and – RUN AWAY FAST NOW. Come back after, if you still feel it’s worthwhile. Please see it from the view of cost/benefit scale. How would I come to this conclusion? Because victims become superior victimizers, that is why. My experience of gays and lesbians is in this 99% category: lesbians damned me for leaving “the team”; out me when I required medical privacy in a professional environment. Word had spread fast about what had happened. I got stalked and never got to relax until I left. I was physically ambushed and assaulted. Secondly, two, dating dykes in their careless, loud conversation in a restaurant displayed their verbal disgust of me. There were two law enforcement officers [LEOs] sitting next to them. That was so enlightening of them. Those two LEOs decided they were going to pull a “Brandon Tina” and have some “fun”. The only reason I am not dead today is because my girlfriend at the time, did an intervention on the cops before we left the restaurant. I won’t say how and she saved our lives. Thirdly, gay men, it is a similar story of rejection and revenge. It was really sick stuff. I started hanging out with bi-women for safety and friendships. I found an empty office room to get away and have lunch. So no, I didn’t get the welcome-wagon; I pushed out under the punishment of assault and/or conspiracy to attempt murder via a 3rd party. Sound like fun to you? No, this is a ridiculous idea of “be[ing] seen as normal”. I know the thirtysomething woman didn’t mean this, however, this “moralizing thing” makes me laugh.

8. BELIEF THAT TR

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JustMe
10/31/2012 10:28:37 am

Part 3/Nothing Follows
8. BELIEF THAT TRANS MEN ARE TAKING THE EASY WAY OUT. – Again…I am laughing my ass off. Really--? Easy--? I had to walk away from everyone [family and friends; my home, my career] and everything else [where I grew up] I knew, except for being male. I had to move to a different state to be accepted as who I am. This is a city where gays and lesbians aren’t 10 % of the population. Where straight people don’t go on autopilot and assume everyone is gay. Could you screw up the courage to leave everything you know behind? So, the thirtysomething woman is correct, this is not easy way out. *You better screw up some courage and fast.

9. STEREOTYPE OF BUTCHES AS "OLD-SCHOOL" AND OF TRANS GUYS AS THE NEW, YOUNGER "VERSION" OF BUTCH. – I am a guy and it’s that simple. *You need a “butch”; go find her.

10. PERCEPTION THAT TRANS MEN REINFORCE THE GENDER DICHOTOMY. – No. This is a false dichotomy, such as, you are either with us or you are against us. However, constant questioning my existence as a man, when *you are whatever, will –not- endear me to you.

In conclusion, I am transman and that’s it. It is just that simple. Do I have another side of me to give balance to my personality -- of course. Furthermore, I can’t stand the “Alpha-betting” [meaning those letters, FTM] of men. It reinforces the past, not the gender of the present. However, still dragging around that “F” of “FTM”? Rhetorically speaking, can’t we let the bitch die?

Thank you for allowing me space on yr Blog; though I wrote a novel, next time it will be short.
JustMe

P.S. I wish there was a preview/edit feature before actually sending.

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CC
9/7/2014 06:51:52 pm

So very true. It's why I rarely bother to read lesbian stuff. But I never had problem being accept as a man even though I never done anything to "transition." I know who I am, I accept my gender, and I don't give a fuck what other people think.

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Ellie
11/5/2012 07:08:23 pm

Thanks for this discussion. I think about it frequently.

I identify as femme female. I am erotically and emotionally interested in stone butch women. I would never be in a romantic relationship with a constructed or unconstucted male. I don't care if anyone else is, it is just not for me. I am female centered.

A butch boifriend one told me that my type of woman is the most rare of all. Hye said that everyone loves a luscious femme - even gay boys love Sophia Loren - but that the rarest of all birds are those of us who are attracted to butch women.

Any one who has the courage to become fully who they are deserves my respect and there is plenty of room in the LGBTQIQ tent for everyone - it is one of the biggest tents on the planet!

Finally. for many women - about a third of American women - the penis has been wielded as a tool of aggression in rape and for most of the world is has been a symbol of the oppression of women for eons. While it is difficult to imagine anyone who has endured what a FtM has passed through could be a rapist, it is reasonable to understand and admit the fact of the symbolism and to give women who want it freedom from that particular symbol when the request it.

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e
11/5/2012 07:11:03 pm

Ugh. Sorry for the typos...where is my copy editor?

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lark
12/30/2012 11:51:24 am

I am a femme and I have been in a butch femme relationship for over 3 decades.

I find that the trans men thing is vastly more common among the younger crowd. I told some younger friends that I thought the trend had some elements of a fad. (I've been around dykes so long that I've seen many fads.) They took offense and said essentially that my generation just repressed transexual identity. So I went and asked a couple of older butches in my circle if they felt like repressed transexuals.. They found this funny.

I don't feel the decline in butches has an effect for me because it doesn't effect my generation. I've known a fairly large group of women for decades and it just is not an issue for us.

On the other hand it does make me sad that a part of lesbian culture may be passing away. Butch-femme is a core part of lesbian culture and history. It is not just the possibility of transexual transition which is weakening this part of lesbian culture but assimiliation. I think the underground gay life of the past really made something separate - lesbian masculinity wasn't just butch - it was butch-femme. A creation of the couple, in a community. That was really cool and a great part of my erotic history. To be honest, I pity the younger crowd - that you have lost that.

I think that lesbians of different generations have almost no contact. We don't have as many intergenerational relationships as gay men. When I am with my older dyke friends, younger women are never present. They aren't interested ( and that lack of interest is mutual, I think). This is unfortunate because lesbian culture does not get transmitted.

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lark
1/8/2013 03:29:42 am

Re-subscribe. Unsub'd by accident, sorry.

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Rowan
1/8/2013 03:11:02 am

thank you for a well written article. I am a man. so I was born a woman, who really cares right? It should not be such the issue that it is being made out to be. The other men I know tend to fall into one of two lines, hetero or gay. The hetero go for the ladies and the gay for the boys. Personally I don't understand why a man who has passed through the transistion would chase a lesbian lady. She likes women, not men. Nor do I understand how the reverse works either. If one is lesbian why date a man in or done with transisition? I am in my mid 30's also. This is no fad for me. I am a gay man who had the horror of being born into the wrong flesh. Such things happen. It is nice to know what was happening to me and finding a way to become who I should have been barring the accident of my birth genitals.
I didn't go through the pain and suffering both physical and emotional to "gain male privlages". I was just being who and what I was. No more no less. It was not an "easy way out" in any way shape or form. I personally would not press myself into a women's only space, that would be rude. But I must say that pushing the women who transistioned from male geintals out is just as wrong. They are most definantly women. Many of them work very hard to look, display, and be the woman they are. Maligning them because of a birth accident is pretty shameful.
For the butch women, you go ladies. You got a rough end of the stick in society where extreme femm is the magazine "ideal". It takes mad guts to say "nope I am me and screw you". Keep at it and fuck those who can't accept you.
For you femm ladies, if you love your butch women then love away and don't let anyone pressure you to go to a "transman" just because that is what they think you should do.
Life is too short for the crap, no we are not always going to totally agree. The "trans" communities needs are different from the Gay/lesbian community but we are coming up behind you trying to gain some of the same measure that your hard work has won. Shit ain't always fair, but hate only hurts everyone.
Love who you are, be yourself, fuck the nay sayers and if you have to find others of like mind and hang with them instead. Cause really.. it is not worth the headache.

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Butch Wonders link
1/15/2013 03:33:47 am

Note to Restless et. al: This morning, someone called "Iris" posted some really hateful things about trans* people in response to this post. I've deleted her comments, because although I think this blog is a great place for healthy debate, it is not a place to express hatred of others. I'm committed to making this a safe place for people. Unpopular opinions with which I disagree (e.g., "Trans* people seem confused) are welcome. But statements of simple hatred and bigotry are NOT welcome. That is not "debate;" that is complete invalidation of another group of people. And I won't allow it on Butch Wonders. I almost *never* delete comments--not if there's a shred of doubt in my mind that the person might be well-intentioned. There was no question here. If you are "Iris" and want to talk further, feel free to email me at [email protected].

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Restless
1/15/2013 08:52:29 am

Thank you. Although-it looks like she is at it again. :(

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Butch Wonders link
1/15/2013 09:16:20 am

Yeah, I received a nice, long, hateful email from her. I'll keep deleting the crap she writes, but if it keeps up, I'm going to have to change the blog so that ALL comments will require my approval before they're posted. What a pain.

alex
1/16/2013 12:44:09 pm

I think some butches are transguys but they just don't do body modification. I think some of the older generation of butches who came of age before body modification was even known of are in this category. I think there are a lot of feelings for those butches to deal with because there is a lot to consider and it is a brave-new-world. Some tension lies there. I think this is a bigger issue between generations than it is for the younger generation.

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lark
1/16/2013 02:10:32 pm

The assumption that older butches are "really transguys" is disrespectful. I think it exactly corollary to me saying that transitioning is a fad (and I've seen a lot of fads, in my experience lesbians are faddish). If you have friends who have told you this, I think it's okay to (anonymously) transmit what has been said to you. But if not, can it. You are carelessly describing 50 or 60 of 70 years of living in a body, and you have no business doing that.

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Butch Wonders link
1/18/2013 09:19:27 am

I think that's a really, really good point, and I think I should clarify. What I meant wasn't that a bunch of older butches are secretly trans men. I meant that, had they been born twenty years ago instead of sixty years ago, I think it's reasonable to guess that some percentage of them would identify as trans men.

Why do I think this? Well, the number of people who identify as trans men has skyrocketed in the past 20 years. Yes, there have always been trans men. But many, many more people actively ID as trans men now. And there is a big overlap between people who now consider themselves trans men and people who used to consider themselves butch lesbians (and may or may not still consider themselves butches).

I don't think it's disrespectful to suggest that there are some 60-year-old butches walking around who would ID as trans men if they were 20-year-olds. Similarly, I think that the fact that more young people ID as bisexual than ID'd as bisexual 40 years ago does not mean that there are suddenly more bisexual people in this generation; I just think it means that society has changed such that more people feel comfortable identifying in this way.

alex
1/16/2013 02:05:05 pm

I do think some older butches are repressed transgenered ftm. But i'm sure most older butches aren't. The older generation wasn't really aware of this topic until this generation defined it so of course it would be hard to process it all. I think it is hard for anyone to process this huge change.

We have changed to a group that says you have the birthright to choose your gender and be treated accordingly as per your self identification, from not even daring to think that was possible. We did this in a generation or two... pretty amazing.

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lark
1/16/2013 02:24:40 pm

I don't agree the older generation wasn't aware of it. The first F2M I knew was back in the 1970's. I knew several in the 80's as well, etc.

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Butch Wonders link
1/18/2013 09:22:31 am

Sure, there have always been trans men. But you've gotta admit that knowledge of trans issues has become much, much more widespread in recent decades. I've certainly met older butches who say that they had no idea that it was an "option" until five or ten years ago, by which point they decided it was too late to transition, or just not worth it for one reason or another. This does not invalidate their identity as butches, or as women, or as any other group with which they identify.

lark
1/19/2013 07:13:05 am

I am curious as to whether ButchWonders thinks that it is disrespectful to say that some proportion of the transitioning that is going on is related to fashion / faddishness.

I wouldn't suspect that except that the surge in numbers has been so very large - I hardly know any butches under 40 who don't identify as trans. It's like trans is the new butch. I am curious about that eruption of a bio/hormonal/"I was always really male" based identity. Especially as I know so many of the older generation of butches who are indifferent to the whole issue. This sort of swift transformation seems like it might well have a strong cultural component.

Is that a bad thing? Born males tend to have more rigid sexual identities in every way. I question whether it is really accurate or helpful to put the burden of "I was really born in the wrong body, I am actually a man" on to ALL of F2M transitioning. Some of it, sure.

Also the meaning of Butch in the lesbian context and the role of Butch Femme (both diminished) has changed. As lesbians have become more acceptable and assimilated, I have observed less butchness as an aspect of lesbian culture. I think it has been watered down. Could play a role? My point is that the culture has changed and I think that has consequences.

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Just Me link
1/31/2013 03:30:56 pm

"I am curious as to whether ButchWonders thinks that it is disrespectful to say that some proportion of the transitioning that is going on is related to fashion / faddishness."

ButchWonders may/may not and I do find the comment disrespectful. Here it is: **Years, decades, and centuries of parents saying their straight female child being that dyke is a fad. Yea, your fad dyke, now be my straight child.** Now, how does it sound? Wear well? No. And, neither does the "fad comment".

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Alister
4/8/2014 04:59:48 pm

I have wondered the same thing as lark around the trans fad. I don't in any way mean to invalidate the experiences of many younger "trans" people, but I do wonder how this "new" identity may be driving a more gender-fluid group to choosing one side or the other. I'm actually shocked to learn that younger butch or gender fluid people are feeling pressure to choose trans as an identity. After being out of the closet for 22 years this really blows my mind and I think needs to be researched and discussed further. Regardless, I see it as a possible symptom of growing pains around the slow acceptance that gender is not concrete and a binary. Perhaps in a very real way, crossing over to the other gender is easier for some people to mentally decipher than having aspects of both genders, or simple variance between your birth body and your gender expression. BW, this post and the comments have really helped me with a subject that has left me with some wounds. Thank you. Thank you all so much for this open and honest discussion. It gives me greater hope for our future.

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jay
4/14/2013 07:06:58 pm

I got here by googling something totally unrelated, interestingly. But I am a mid 30s trans guy who used to be butch identified (for a couple of years anyway) and I have a lot of opinions on this subject.
First, I find it odd that you didn't mention trans women in your OP. I have met so many trans women /trans female butches in the last few years. They are out there--it's a ignorant fallacy to assume all trans women are hyperfeminine (not that there is anything wrong with those who are.) A huge number of trans women are lesbian, too.

Secondly, I think there definitely is a pressure to identify as trans and possibly transition in the younger community. Honestly, I think it's an over-correction from a time when no one accepted trans men, and I think it's a function of continued transphobia in mainstream society. I believe things will even out eventually. I also think it is a creepy dynamic for some femme identified folks to care about the numbers of butches because they want to have someone to date. Someone's gender should be their own business. I used to be involved in the butch-femme community, and no one was a sadder bubba than a trans guy who was living butch because his femme wouldn't let him transition. I see masculine female expression everywhere these days (and I don't mean trans dude, who are dudes.) And it's not like butch-femme dynamic was overly egalitarian. Butches were valued on how fit they were, their looks, how much money they earned, standards of masculinity that could make one's hair curl. I personally am glad I am out of that dynamic because it was WRONG for me, entirely. And I would happily date a bi butch if she'd be cool dating a bi dude.

I think I have a unique perspective because I came out as trans right before it started to have mainstream visibility. So everything that's come up in the last ten years has pinged kinda painfully around me and made me feel like a traitor, like someone following a fad, or worse.

I'm sorry I ever took up space as a butch. It wasn't even a label that came from me, it came from others reading me that way.

We shouldn't be overly concerned with butch flight or these border wars that if they exist, only exist in really contrived contexts. We need to make everyone feel there is room for them, and everyone feel welcome.

I would never goad someone into transitioning--the idea makes me feel sick. There are certainly tangible rewards for someone like me, who is letting his true self out--but for someone who doesn't feel this way? It's just a sick thought.

A not well kept secret is there are people who have de/retransitioned as well. Those people are also members of our communities and shouldn't be made to feel like dupes. The appropriate reaction wouldn't be to make it harder to transition. The goal in life is not to make sure cis people stay cis.

I want to wrap this up by saying out of all the butches I've known, only about a third have transitioned. I don't think that's cause for alarm.

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Joe
7/2/2013 06:22:53 pm

This is one of the best written blogs I have read on this topic. I'm in my early 30s and have been on hormones for 9 years. I did identify as butch before I decided to take hormones and later have top surgery. I was also a women's studies major and spent a lot of time looking at gender. For as long as I can remember I have been attracted to all types of women. As a butch, I got flack for being very open about the fact that I had slept with other butch women. I've always been different no matter what community I've belonged to. Even looking like a man, I still have gone on dates and been with butches.

I spent a good period of time debating the idea of transitioning. Other people told me (and continue to tell me) that I am "so much like a guy." I was asked if I was going to transition but never really felt pressured. I knew that I wasn't quite like other butches. I didn't really feel comfortable being female. I transitioned mainly because I had body dysphoria. As I've grown in my identity I consider myself a transgender man, not "a man". I have had an experience of being raised as and living as a woman. I made a choice to transition because it was best for my mental and emotional health. I am out and work in the community as a transgender man. Eventhough many folks consider me to be "very masculine", I show my "feminine side" as freely as possible. I really don't think it's even as black and white as "a butch is a woman who is masculine but enjoys being a women vs a transman is a person who wants to be a man." I know many people who take hormones or only transition to a certain extent. That doesn't necessarily mean they identify as 100% male. In reality I will never have the experience of a cisgender man and I don't think there is anything wrong with identifying as a transman specifically. This is my experience and I'm not saying this is the case for all transmen.

The interesting thing is that I have attracted many lesbian identified women to me (varying ages) since transitioning. I sympathize with the struggle that they often express. I do look like a man. I have male privledge. People see us as a heterosexual couple. That is all very difficult. I get it. At the same time, I feel like we are moving into a new area of gender and sexuality as a society. I also am a therapist with LGBTQ youth and I see many of them chosing to take some hormones, experimenting with gender etc. They really don't see it as butch vs trans. There are many shades of grey or colors of the rainbow for them. They often ask me if I think they should transition. I tell them, "it's your choice. If you feel you can't live in the body you have then you may want to consider changing it." seems ot work.

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Vic
1/29/2014 07:46:00 am

Each and every one of those "myths" you tried so hard to rationalise and dispel are unfortunately true and I feel really sad to read this whole thing.

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Anidem
10/17/2014 10:50:43 am

I'm a trans guy who dates butch women. LOVE THEM! I fully support trans women being in women's only spaces and I respect those places enough not to enter. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on these topics and dealing with the potential backlash.

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liz
10/21/2014 02:10:00 pm

im a straight girl and im recently dating a FtM, im still pretty new with all these terms, so your article is very helpful =)

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EJ
3/1/2015 04:26:39 pm

There are two things going on here, both are true in my opinion. Firstly, trans people are starting to feel like they can be themselves. Secondly, butches are seeing themselves in a trans light more than before. It is undeniable that identities are shifting very rapidly within the community.
I have been an out lesbian for 17 years. I have paid close attention to this issue from the beginning. I am attracted to female identified, butch lesbians. I could never be with a trans guy. I do not want to have a male identified partner. Most people understand this sentiment in theory but as a single person, my chances of meeting someone seem to get slimmer and slimmer every day. I get the explanation that maybe there were always this many trans people. My question is: are there really so few real butches?
Has growing acceptance from the straight community forced the queer community to backtrack? We have seen femmes become high femmes, butches either take male pronouns or deny being butch at all. The pressure for queers to be validated by straight people has in some ways deconstructed our self made set of identities. Sometimes I simply can not relate to young queer people. We have viewed our sexuality through totally different lenses. It is important to remember where we came from. It is a good idea to at least honor and consider old school ways of thinking. One thing that really bothers me is when people I initally perceive as butch say: "I'm not butch, I don't want to be a man.". I find this so confusing. I am looking at someone who probably would have identified as butch 10 years ago, renouncing and misunderstanding the term.
The people are the same, the identities are in actuality the same but now there are just a lot more words being used.
More power to you if you are trans. My question is: will the female identified butch resurge? After the queer community goes through all it's phases, will we end up back where we started and if so, does anyone know what that is anymore? Why does it feel like my world has been turned upside down as a low femme? It seems like the queer community was stronger and more true before straight people took an interest in us. Do I have any family out there?

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Aj
3/7/2015 01:28:56 pm

I think it is pretty sad that lesbians see us FTMS as traitors when we are just living out lives as we feel comfortable living, however I have received the cold shoulder a few times since I have transitioned, but I don't take it to heart because it just shows their level of ignorance and are not very understanding that it is what we are and NOT a choice to become men. As for the dating scenario. Most of my life I have lived as a butch lesbian until about 5 years ago when I started my transition. During that time and throughout my life I had only dated very VERY feminine women. I recently found myself extremely attracted to a short haired butch woman. I would date her HANDS DOWN, but not something that is ever gonna happen, but since my huge attraction to her it has opened up a whole new world of possibilites. I do however believe that being on testosterone shots gave made this change in me. I have also heard about ftms dating other ftms and bio men etc. That's definitely not for me, but to each their own. Just think that finding this butch girl attractive is SO crazy and so out of line for me so I never say never to myself finding a butch woman or even a very short haired tomboy to date. Time will tell. I don't know if it just this one woman or if I would indeed have another attraction to a butch kind of women. I am kind of interested to see how my life and this new found attraction for me plays out.

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river
3/9/2015 07:50:08 am

Im gender non conforming, I have not been on hormones and in the past I thought I may be trans, dispite the fact I have a female gender identity. I identified as a lesbian because thats what I thought I was, but when I started trying to sort my gender issues outcive found im happy being a woman but have an aversion to the sex role expectations that come with it in this society and want to be fully myself as a woman. Ive realized recently im attracted to men, and I find it hard to get my head around it because I struggle to see how I can be the way I am as a womanand be with a man without being expected to change inline with what women are expected to be. If im honest I dont think ive ever been a real lesbian I just gravitated to where I could get away from sex role expectations. I think anyone butch or masculine are set up in competition with others who are butch or masculine or men and this is why theres this thing about butch women dating each other or butch women dating men. I think this taboo is created by heteromasculinity and based on how straight men are adverse with each other, some butch women internalize that and deal with each other and men in similar ways. I think things are changing though bc today men are dropping some of the macho stuff and connecting with each other differently.

I dont identity as butch or masculine, at least not anymore though others may place me there, I think those who do have to be careful not to internalize the negitive versions of masculinity that sets them up against others, this way of being is not anygood for men either its there to make men insecure in their manhood.

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ok
8/16/2015 08:20:14 am

So if a butch transitions and then stops taking t, and then identifies as nonbinary because butch communities often don't honor/know the experience (trauma) of transition, the person may continue to have an Adams apple and be taken as a man. What does that mean for women who have transitioned?

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Alex
5/18/2016 09:12:30 am

What people often don't realise is that many ftms were never butch to begin with. I'm bi, and always androgynous but never even identified as a lesbian, people often thought I was a gay boy when I was a teen. I want to transition, but not into a masculine man, but to a feminine guy who wears lipstick, but who is still seen as male. I think people find that very hard to understand because they think that just because I have feminine interests and fashion sense that I should be female, but it's just not what I am.

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Lax
8/13/2016 02:48:53 pm

This seems so weird to me as a 20+... something. I've been going by male pronouns for a few years, because those fit me. I have a nickname that's masculine, and I'm bisexual. I identify with "manly" and "female". I'm trans, and for a few years identified as FTM.

Lately I've been learning about LGBT history, and butches. Hoo boy, lots of this stuff rings true for me. But I never have identified with "woman". I'm not a butch woman, I'm no longer sure I'm a man. I haven't had a single day of male privilege, my files all read "F", and I simply look butch, I haven't yet transitioned (in the progress though).

I've been wanting to think that it's possible to just be butch. Not a butch woman, just butch. Maybe trans butch, because yeah, I'm not a woman. I will be less "female" when I get T, but that's what's my starting point. I'm a masculine female.

I'm really lost on "which" world I belong to. Most trans men I know also are non-passing, so the weird "male privilege" thing doesn't really add up in reality.

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Davey
2/20/2017 12:29:32 pm

I think the problem of most of the FTM folks you know not passing is less because "trans guys don't pass" and more "we have a lot of young, poor trans guys who can't afford surgery and hormones". Even as recently as 2011 it was a lot harder to find pre-everything trans guys posting selfies and stuff unless they were starting on hormones and wanted to document the changes.

That said, it's still not a realistic complaint/what-have-you, but 6 years ago for older butch lesbians especially I can sort of see why they'd have that perspective.

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Jonathan
3/31/2017 05:58:22 pm

I'm an FTM and just wanted to say that I very much agree with what you've said. I might be guilty of perpetuating the gender dichotomies, but like you said, I have never felt like I wasn't male, even since I was about 3 years old, and I have also felt I was different to other butch women. On my feeling about butch women now, this might sound strange, but I noticed that somehow butch women look and sound more and more feminine to me now (that I have fully transitioned for a number of years). This may be also to do with the fact that at work and in my general life, I interact with men a lot more now than I used to. So when I see a butch, they immediately look feminine to me now, so I definitely do not think of them as similar to FTMs or men. I view myself as a pretty normal guy, and I would regard butch women as normal women (and I don't mind the word normal being widened to accommodate a spectrum of people - they are still normal, as opposed to abnormal). I actually think it's cool for a butch woman to express themselves as butch women, but what I find slightly odd are women who pretend to be men (and they are secretly happy when mistaken for a man). I would prefer to be friends with a butch woman who is proud to be a woman.

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